When my dogs are bad I tell them that I'm going to have roast dog for dinner.  But I say it really cute and nice and high pitched so that they think I'm telling them something good.  Then they get all excited....at the prospect of roast dog for dinner...it's my own version of revenge on them!

However, I just can't compare a nice steak to my dogs...or any pets.  Then again, I'm a Texan..haha.

Kara September 9th, 2009 11:12:47 AM

Kara--hee, I do the same.  I tell 'em I'm gonna put 'em on a spit and barbecue them.  (Not that I could ever follow through, but hey.)

I grew up with rabbits as pets, which many consider quite an acceptable meat.  Rabbits can have just as much personality as dogs; mine came when called and did tricks.  I had one house rabbit who adored my dad, and used to jump up behind him on the couch and try to cuddle his beard.  But rabbit's just fine to eat.

I also grew up hearing all the stories about how my dad "ate his pets" growing up; his family raised pigs, and he & his siblings apparently treated them as pets until they were slaughtered.  (Talk about an animal with a personality!  Pigs are smart too.)

So hey, pets can be meat, sure.  I wouldn't want to eat MY pets, and even today I don't think I could bring myself to eat rabbit at all.  And we probably put a lot of chemicals in pets that make them unsuitable for human consumption anyway (heartworm prevention at the very least).  But it's silly to think that just because an animal is typically considered a pet, it shouldn't be eaten.

Should I open the can of worms that is horse meat, or let it be?

Galadriel September 9th, 2009 11:27:22 AM

I had a long argument with an ex-boyfriend about a similar topic. If you were stranded "Alive"-style with a frozen stock of dead people and a live dog, which do you eat first? People obviously.

He went with the dog first, which still baffles me. I think even it was a cow I'd be working on the people first. Perhaps not a chicken though...

Emsee September 9th, 2009 11:31:53 AM

PLEASE finish that novel!  Logic and critical thinking don't always jive with cultural norms and taboos :)

PJBoosinger http://pjboosinger.viviti.com/ September 9th, 2009 12:39:22 PM

Don't forget the cult classic, "A Boy and his Dog". If you've never seens it, I won't spoil the ending. Or maybe I just did.

Reminds me of a joke we have going at Tripawds that started when we wrote about Ku-won, a Korean dog farm survivor who was considered inedible because he only had three legs (seriously) ... A dog that good you can't eat all at once! :-)

PS: No offense intended here. For those of us who face cancer and amputation for our beloved dogs, often a good dose of humor is the best medicine.

tripawds.com September 9th, 2009 12:40:33 PM

I have cooking styles picked for all the cats and dogs-I like to be specific with my threats. In fact, one dog would get very excited at the thought of being stuffed with bacon!

But I prefer to eat herbivores with a smidgen of omnivore. I'll avoid long pig until necessary-and probably place cat and dog after that.

rheather September 9th, 2009 01:17:04 PM

Generally, I'd agree with that ordering of priorities but Glenda's in heat and some of the males the neighbors are allowing to roam who are coming right up my porch steps and scratching the gate are starting to look spit ready :)

PJBoosinger September 9th, 2009 02:29:40 PM

I am more offended and ticked off by the stupid spammers here that by the topic of eating dog, which truly isn't something I'd be able to do, unless it were already dead, ground up, slathered in maybe bbq sauce and presented to me as pork.  These idiot spammers, however, I'd just grind up and feed to my dogs.

KateH September 9th, 2009 02:41:53 PM

Nothing is visually uglier than oysters, one of my favorite foods.  Some folks cannot even watch me eat one.  I don't think I would enjoy watch someone eating a dog. What about hot dogs?

Hobson September 9th, 2009 03:10:42 PM

Are you abolutely sure they aren't putting dog in hot dogs?  I mean, there's just about everything else in there these days :)

PJBoosinger September 9th, 2009 03:18:15 PM

Hobson: I don't know...a lamb shank looks an awful lot like its canine counterpart. There are even times when I've amputated one and marveled at all that unused protein.

Dr. Patty Khuly September 9th, 2009 03:48:15 PM

When I taught high school I had a student that determined that sans deity, the instrinsic nature of humans was either as slaves or as food.

I told him to get busy, I was getting hungry.

Bob Jones September 9th, 2009 04:46:56 PM

goodness....and I thought I was twisted because of my Dexter fixation.

LorriM September 9th, 2009 05:44:00 PM

I wish Dexter were real but that is a whole nother topic. VBG

Many many years ago I briefly raised rabbits for show. Cute little broken blue mini rex. Had fun with them to until I realized I couldn't deal with the guilt of producing more than I could keep and show and needed to sell the babies. Sell MY babies? Nope, to many people throw them in a hutch and ignore them.

Guess what they used to serve for food at the shows? Yup rabbit stew. When in Rome and all. I admit I liked it. Of course none of them were MY rabbits which helped.

Interesting post.

Marie September 9th, 2009 09:23:57 PM

I find it strange that entire countries are starving yet in the United States we kill thousands of animals every day and dispose of them because no one wants them for pets.  I personally do not want to eat cats or dogs, but I think we should slaughter the unwanted pets humanely and then can the meat for human consumption in foreign countries -- if their culture permits them to eat these animals.  Although people may survive starvation, their brains may be damaged from lack of proper nutrition.  And the brain damage caused by starvation may indicate why certain peoples' are unable to be educated to help their fellow countrymen to overcome famines.

Classof65

Classof65 September 9th, 2009 10:00:50 PM

Reminds me of a magazine ad I saw a while back: In the background of the photo was a mostly-eaten plate of chinese food.  In the foreground was a broken fortune cookie and a fortune that read "That wasn't chicken."

Good times.

Dennis Leon, DVM

Dr. Dennis Leon September 9th, 2009 10:34:44 PM

I have read that dogs who are slaughtered for food are often tortured, with some rationale that the fear and stress either A) makes the meat more tasty or B) gives it enhanced nutritional or medical qualities.

This may be PETA style hyperbole and lies, but if true THAT would really be my only objection to cultures that keep dogs for food.  As with any animal, a humane death is a good thing.  After that, it doesn't matter whether the carcass is consumed for food, skinned for leather or fur, or buried or cremated.

Your article in USA Today was good too.  It is so odd to think, that only a generation ago most veterinarians were also hunters.  A lot of the older ones still are.  This is also something that strikes people (especially city folk) as flagrantly inconsistent, but the hunting tradition often instills both a respect and TRUE understanding of animal life (i.e. "Nature" ain't all butterflies and sunbeams) and a fundamental knowledge of anatomy.  Not so odd that a lot of those youngsters grow up wanting to be veterinarians.

Barb September 9th, 2009 10:52:45 PM

Oh, boy, on this one I'm going to have to disagree with you Dr. Khuly. (Not about the novel though)

First let me make it clear that I'm not talking about insects or other animals that we don't know to be sentient. And, I don't belong to PETA--I have lots of problems with things they do.

But I've spent years studying these issues from several standpoints and as knowledge evolves. What I can say is that when it's clear an animal can think, has a working mind with evidence of sentience--no I do not agree with eating them. Dogs, for example are unquestionably sentient. Recent research indicates that dogs can outperform human babies on many tasks, like counting and other things. This is from a study where the researchers gave infants an infant IQ measure, then gave it to dogs. Other research indicates that dogs have the same 5 personality factors as humans. And, dogs tested with an adaptation of the "strange situation" showed exactly the same attachment styles toward their human companion as human infants do to their caretaker. This is serious stuff, and I have many other examples, not anthropomorphism. Fact is, dogs think like dogs-humans (sometimes) think like humans. Meaning-making is different, and dogs will adapt to even the cruelest of situations-but so do many of our children. There can be a trauma bond even in a cruelty-based relationship.

Leaving a very bright dog to do nothing but be in the yard is as cruel as leaving a human in a situation with little stimulation. Dogs love to learn even without treats, and can transfer their knowledge to other situations. For example, a dog well-trained and excited about doing dog agility becomes motivated to do it, even without the human continuing to reinforce. And, as I can attest, they learn they can do more than they thought. My first agility dog had taken classes for a while. I had built a four-platform big cat climber thing. One morning I woke up and went toward the cat thing, then did a double-take; she had climbed somehow to the third level, and was lying on it looking a bit sheepish. It's design was unlike any of the obstacles she'd learned. And she figured out it was easy to climb onto counters! Finally, one of the studies performed on dolphins tested whether they possessed an awareness of mirror self-recognition. They do. This is a sign of intelligence and self-other awareness. I've had two dogs in a row now who clearly also possess mirror self-recognition. And so on.

There is so much more. I'm not vegetarian but I avoid eating meat much of the time. And I won't eat pork of any kind because pigs are sentient. Just read the first part of the book In the Company of Animals, James Serpell, Cambridge (1996).

About the Sci-fi-one of my favorites is the novels by David Brin in two different trilogies. His concept is that society gained enough knowlege to genetically assist ("uplift") sentient animals, if the species wanted it. You have to begin with the first trilogy. BTW we're fundamentally there--now. And of course Clifford Simack's City is a great classic.

Finally, i will just mention the important two-way benefits in physical and psychological health between humans and animals, animals' now recognized importance to human development, animal assisted therapy, service dogs who assist people with PTSD, and of course the cancer sniffing dogs--I had one, to mention just a few things.

Cats and dogs have become so much of our culture, and we theirs, (and read Franz de Waal on animal culture) that eating them would be absolutely horrible. I hope someday Asians will realize this, too, as well as some of the central European countries killing stray dogs by the tens of thousands.

SH September 9th, 2009 11:08:36 PM

SH, I'm with you.  I understand "cultural relativity" but lest we forget, female circumcision and sharia law are "culturally relativistic" practices too.  Should we say they are not to be judged?

I'm not perfect, but like you I do not eat pigs . . . .or dogs.  I haven't eaten cow flesh in so long I can't remember, and recently also, for the most part, stopped eating chicken again (3rd time in my life I've gone lacto-ovo veggie, chicken is always the hardest for me to abstain from).   I'm not calling myself "vegan" and am not trying to be vegan --  I don't think I'll make it.  But I've also started to replace dairy products as much as I can manage right now.  Vegan butter substitute (it's surprisingly good!), coconut milk, soy vegan mayo, soy sour cream.  Except for the latter the substitutes are really surprisingly yummy, I have no need of dairy butter anymore or "real" mayo.

On the topic of dogs outperforming human babies, it's obvious to anyone who has spent time with a 3 month old dog and a 3 month old human baby that although the baby eventually (much later) surpasses the dog, the dogs are ahead of them for a while. 

Should we therefore say it's OK to eat human babies? After all, if in some culture such a practice were acceptable, why not? 

Stefani September 9th, 2009 11:30:08 PM

You may eat dog with your fingers, or you may eat your fingers seperately...

Bob Jones September 10th, 2009 01:56:19 AM

if we don't condone eating sentient pets...and I support that, then we really need to get the japanese to leave the whales and dolphins alone..they are way smarter then dogs, cats and horses.

LorriM September 10th, 2009 02:00:57 AM

I prefer to use sapience as determinative rather than sentience.  In which case, I may have to adapt to long pig but there will be plenty of it to feed all the sapient beings :)

PJBoosinger September 10th, 2009 05:29:03 AM

My boyfriend and I joke around about our cats being "soup cats"...as in there's not much meat on them, but they'd make a good soup! :P This came up after the super of our building said "there's my lunch!" after seeing one of my cats.

Mitsu September 10th, 2009 11:10:55 AM

Yeah, my discussions with vegans (and horse slaughter opponents) tend to break down when it comes out that I don't have any moral objections to cannibalism. (I am with them on humane treatment leading up to 'the deed'). I think I had more of an aversion to eating raw fish than I would to eating cooked dog. I've since learned to love sushi, but have not to my knowledge ever eaten the later.

Have you heard the theory about the creation of the chow breed? Supposedly they were selected for three things 1) to provide protection 2) to be tasty 3) to provide warm fur for clothing. It smells like an urban legend, but I find the concept wonderfully utilitarian.

puppynerd September 10th, 2009 04:04:17 PM

I was a bit saddened to read such statements from a veterinarian. I guess I am being naiive in thinking that all vets have complete respect for all animals - but it is so hard for me to cope with the idea that a person has such compassion and understanding for some types of animals...but not others. The animals that the masses consume, the meats that are sold in groceries stores across the nation, the slaves of the horrific (TRULY HORRIFIC) conditions of factory farms that nearly every American unknowingly supports - these creatures are beautiful in their own right and just as intelligent as any dog or cat. As one personabove me touchedon, there have been numerous tests used to judge the intelligence of animals, including farm animals. It is not a question of their thinking and understanding anymore. Yet some people still choose to ignore that.

In my opinion, all animals are beautiful and unique and endlessly fascinating. God created them all for us to respect. I choose not to eat meat (or consume animal products due to the means used to attain such products - their deaths are the best thing that happen to them in their short lives). I choose not to eat such things because I respect all animals. If I cannot look it in the eye and slit its throat myself, I don't deserve to enjoy it.

Please do research about factory farming. It wasn't untilI was required to write a paper on the topic that I discovered all of this information. I was so shocked at all these practices that went on everyday and yet no one spoke about them. It seems too horrible to be true but sadly it is. Do your own research but here is a page with good information:

http://www.idausa.org/facts/factoryfarmfacts.html

My entire life changed the day I sat down to research for that paper. I will never return to my old habits.

Jen (future vet) September 10th, 2009 10:16:18 PM

Jen: I, too, reject 'factory farming's' methods and refuse to participate in the abomination that is animal agriculture in its mass-marketed form. However, one does not need to be a vegetarian or vegan to opt out of that model. If your philosophical POV allows for animal consumption but disallows cruel treatment, you have plenty of options. Too bad most of them are prohibitively expensive and/or time consuming...but they are to be had (and raised yourself).

If you choose a vegan lifestyle based on your inability to square your beliefs with animal use, then I totally respect that choice. But don't condemn animal consumption based solely on the principle that indutrial farming is the only way__because it's not.

When more of us step up to the plate with choices that favor humanely raised and slaughtered meats (and cruelty-free animal proteins of all stripes), we speak to the critical importance of these approaches to our moral outlook. Yes, sometimes it can be every bit as good to vote with your palate in this way than to opt out of the system entirely by eschewing animal proteins altogether––that is, if you're morally so disposed.

Dr. Patty Khuly September 10th, 2009 11:36:41 PM

"I choose not to eat meat (or consume animal products... I choose not to eat such things"

Jen, at the risk of bursting another bubble for you, while you may not eat "such things" it is HIGHLY likely you are indeed consuming them nonetheless.  Does your transportation or equipment require grease?  Do you have candles or soap (or other "beauty" products)?  Drive across any steel bridges?  Use any chemicals?  These are a few of the industries that use rendered animals in their production process included here.  If some of us have developed the warped senses of humor of morticians, it's because we have indeed done our research.  Once you have, you too may learn to laugh a bit at what some would call gallows humor.  Some days it's either that or sit in a corner and weep all day.  Sadly, without rendered products, our lives would be much, much more difficult.  More sadly, most of us aren't even aware that buying many of these products supports rendering and the products are blithely consumed in ignorance.

PJBoosinger September 11th, 2009 07:25:27 AM

Hi, Dr Khuly

Three things - did you notice the two comments before mine seem to be trying to sell things? (I think.)

Second - this discussion reminds me of my neighbor, who loves her chickens, hand-raises them from chicks, teaches them to perch, cares for them in every way. And when they are no longer useful, kills them quickly, humanely, making sure they don't know they are to die. She sometimes eats them, but not usually.

Thirdly, the discussion about kangaroo and the Russians is quite complex. Australia can consume most of its produced kangaroo meat in the domestic market, although many people reject the eating of this animal. It's the "extra" bits of the animals that used to be sold to Russia - and made into smallgoods, etc. Now that the by-products don't have a market, the meat processing companies are in trouble and the hunters have lost their jobs. Yet farmers, who are often not skillful and humane hunters, still want the kangaroos removed. It's ethically and environmentally quite complex. Newspaper photos of dozens of kangaroos piled on top of each other against a fence, unable to find food because of climate change and drought, unable to reach water because of fencing, are terrible and confronting.

parlance September 12th, 2009 04:48:21 AM

Firstly, I think there's something weird about eating a fellow predator. I can't do it. So there's a division for me between prey and predator animals. Further, I have a problem with eating an animal that's trainable.

I've hung out quite a bit with all sorts of farm animals. Pigs are smart and infinitely trainable. I feel bad for every bite of pork I consume and thus I consume very little. Cows, sheep and chickens are DIM. And sometimes kind of mean on top of it. Likewise, fish are dim. The goats I've known are pretty simple-minded.

Some horses are as dim as cattle and need to be eaten by someone other than me; others are quite smart and trainable and should not be consumed. 

On a related note, I couldn't watch that Will Smith movie where he and his dog are lone survivors of some kind of apocolypse (spelling apologies) because I read that there's a scene where he quietly chokes his dog to death because she was making noise and giving away their location to the bad guys. Nope, don't want to think about that.

How can the Ugg boot people get through Captain Captcha when we sometimes can't?

Deanna September 12th, 2009 01:48:58 PM

"The goats I've known are pretty simple-minded." ....  and I was called a troll  ;-)

Them's head-buttin' words. Curly is as affectionate as my kittens. He greets me, tries to snuggle my neck and sit on my lap. I will likely not appreciate that as much when he is over 200 lbs.

The goats can tell time even when the sun can't.  They start calling for me at the same time though the sun changes times when it gets up.

When he is not fighting over his food, or fighting over his toys, or fighting over nothing, he is contemplating problems in nuclear physics, psychology and the problem of reconciling socialist agendas with free market histories.  I know this from the simple blank look on his face.

Bob Jones September 13th, 2009 02:28:08 AM

Bob: Singin' my tune on the goats.

While I find the distinction between prey and predator species interesting, the problem is that prey/predator is a distinction that's always viewed through a relativistic human lens. For example, my chickens are not vegetarian. In fact, they are insectivorous with a voracity and ferociousness you might not expect. It's like watching dinosaurs hunt.

Furthermore, I don't consider my prey species to be any less intelligent or trainable than a cat. In fact, I've never managed to train a cat to do anything she didn't already have a mind to do. I didn't have to do much to "train them" to jump on the stanchion or load into the chicken coop at night. They just do it the same way a kitten knows to go to her litterbox. 

But it's interesting that everyone makes distinctions--no exceptions. We all make choices as to what kind of life we're willing to consume, which we consider more sentient than others, etc. That's usually my point to the vegans. 

Dr. Patty Khuly September 13th, 2009 10:06:46 AM

The "wolves domesticated as food" notion is -- well, it doesn't satisfy Occam's Razor.

Oh -- and he has no data to support it.

Looks like a researcher with an inconclusive result that wouldn't have gotten so much media play if he hadn't tacked And then they ATE them to the end.

The most glaring field mark of "I pulled this out of my ass" for me is the speculation about penned, muzzled wolves.

Okay Dr. Savolainen -- here's a wild wolf, some bamboo, and some linen cord -- you try it.

One quality that characterizes all the early domesticants -- sheep, cattle, goats, dogs, chickens -- is their willingness to hang around.  The herd critters can be moved and supervised out on range by a ten-year-old child with a slingshot.  Chickens come home to roost, indeed.  And dogs, contrary to modern delusions, do not need to be chained up in order to stay home.  (The origin of tying up dogs likely had much more to do with the aforementioned chickens, or even more likely, keeping the neighbors unperforated while maintaining a guard animal that would ward off Bad Guys.)

It's one of the reasons I don't consider certain "domestic" animals to be truly domestic.  Rabbits, for example, which must be confined, and were not selectively bred until the Middle Ages.

Postulating that people 14,000 years ago had the material culture necessary to "muzzle" and pen up wolves, then feeding them in order to make more food, is a far cry from this being actually feasible or something that a sensible ancestor would have tried.

I've no doubt that early dogs were sometimes, even frequently, eaten.

I've also no doubt that eating them was not the point of having them around.

H. Houlahan September 14th, 2009 07:41:11 AM

Re chickens:

"It's like watching dinosaurs hunt."

In WIRED magazine recently there was an article that really stopped me in my tracks.  Supposedly, the modern day chicken is related to tyrannasaurus rex.  Moreso than any other currently living being anyone is aware of.  Didn't read the whole thing, but it was based on genetic analysis.

Stefani September 14th, 2009 04:17:56 PM

Thanks for that, Stefani. Here's the piece for those of you interested. And here's the accompanying pic--too funny.

Dr. Patty Khuly September 15th, 2009 07:39:09 AM

I'm late in mentioning this.. but..

Deanna said, "On a related note, I couldn't watch that Will Smith movie where he and his dog are lone survivors of some kind of apocolypse (spelling apologies) because I read that there's a scene where he quietly chokes his dog to death because she was making noise and giving away their location to the bad guys. Nope, don't want to think about that."

It's a minor quibble, but you've got your details wrong..  Will Smith, in that movie, was immune to some disease that was, basically, turning people into photo-sensitive zombies.  he was a scientist and he was working to try and find a cure--because the 'zombies' were still alive, and occasionally showed signs of intellegence (this is actually a really big point in the movie!)  The dog was not immune, he protected her from contracting the virus.  Through a series of events, the dog ends up getting bitten and contracting the disease...  Will Smith tries out the potential cure he has on her....  He held her, stroked her, and when it became obvious that the cure was failing, he strangled her (her head still cuddled agaisnt him) while tears stream down his face.   the next night he's griefstriken and basically tries to kill some zombies and  ends up getting his ass kicked, to put it bluntly.

The dog isn't strangled jsut to keep her quiet, she's euthanized (so to speak) and serves as a very heavy plot point in the story.  it's not just "lol, he killed the dog".

"I am Legend" is actually a pretty awesome movie, especially if you watch the alternate ending which really brings into focus the intelligence of the creatures humanity has transformed into.

Colby September 18th, 2009 07:17:57 PM