Shameless pro-veterinarian plug: Please buy Nancy's book. :)

Dr. Patty Khuly September 24th, 2009 11:41:46 AM

(OMG!  I beat the spammers!  LOL!)

That was a very good response by Dr. Kay!  I agree completely.

The only thing I can do with people like "Anne" is just roll my eyes.  I'm not the type to try and convert someone--I don't have the time or energy, and some people just will never get it--so I try not to let them get to me, and I do what I do, knowing full well that it's good and right.

And it is SOOO correct:  People who can give to animals can give that much more to others in need. When I have the time, energy, and money, I do what I can to help those less fortunate. I may have to check out Temple Grandin and Dr. Kay's books.

Jen M. September 24th, 2009 11:47:46 AM

Right on, both Dr. K's! <Bends down to give morning hugs to snoozing old Lab Buttercup; rises with a fuller, more giving heart>

oh holland September 24th, 2009 11:57:07 AM

Great post.

Like the previous poster said, people like that aren't worth the time to try and reason with them. There are SO many people who think if you are into helping animals that you therefore hate people and do nothing to help people and all the world's problems are the fault of us filthy animal lovers. It never seems to cross their mind that you can do BOTH! Amazing! Meanwhile 99% of the time these same people are doing NOTHING themselves, except sitting around spitting their venom onto others. I'm curious how much time or money this Anne individual has put into volunteering to feed the homeless or donating to feed people starving in other countries. Usually? Nothing.

In the end I just end up feeling frankly very sorry for these types of people.... one, that they must have never experienced the unique animal-human bond, and two, I can't imagine them to be very happy, pleasant people when they feel the need to berate others for *gasp* caring about something like "just a dog".

Ris September 24th, 2009 12:02:16 PM

I so agree that this is an issue for those of us who have built careers based on the bond with companion animals.  My colleagues and I in the mental health professions are often ridiculed and demeaned because our clientele and the losses/crises they are experiencing with their pets don't seem to be as important (in others' eyes) as other problems related to humans.  Comments like "Why are you wasting your time on animals?" or "Why don't you do something important with your life?" and, yes, those tell-tale smirks that appear when I tell people what I do for a living say it all.  In many peoples' eyes, animals are second (or even third) class citizens and, if you devote your life to them, you are overly-sentimental, intellectually-challenged, and downright naive.  Seriously, I know people who don't think veterinarians are "real" doctors!

Laurel Lagoni September 24th, 2009 12:03:57 PM

I'm definitely in a cranky mood today but am sick and tired of this open assault on pet owners.  Not everyone is a pet lover; that's a given.  However, how many of these "attackers" will feel free to lambast me (and others like me) for spending $$$ and emotional currency on my pets yet give people who buy $70,000 cars, designer purses costing more than a year's worth of vet bills, and other "frills" a free pass.  Donate some pro sports players' multi-million dollar bonuses and one could probably buy a small African country and eradicate its poverty altogether.

There will always be suffering in the world, and as good and decent citizens we should try to mitigate it.  Pets, who love us unconditionally, should be able to share in that charity.  Please don't assume that if one doesn't invest time, energy, and $$ into a pet that it is automatically reinvested in charitable giving.

Carol September 24th, 2009 12:04:17 PM

Excellent post and excellent reply Dr. Kay. I also agree with Ris' sentiments. People who pull the "other people in the world are suffering card" typically never spend any time or resources volunteering. I am very active in various children charities in Denver and everyone in those volunteering circles are also pet owners. Coincident? I think not.

Jason September 24th, 2009 12:14:40 PM

Is it reasonable to invest so much, emotionally and financially, in our pets when there is so much human suffering in the world?

Every time I read a comment from some dog hating nitwit about how it's "wrong to spend money on dogs when PEOPLE are suffering", I want to find out where they live, and break into their house so that I can see if they own a TV.

After all, it's WRONG to spend money on electronics, when people are suffereing in the world! Own a car? Sell it! Take transit, donate the money to end all that suffering! Eat dinner out? Quit it, and donate that money to end all that suffering! Ditto new clothes! A new washer and dryer! Trips to Florida!

You get the idea.

It's ok for those whiners to spend their disposable income on the things that they find enjoyable, but not ok for us to spend it on our pets.

Pot/kettle/shut the hell up is what I usually say....

FrogDog Blog

FrogDogz September 24th, 2009 12:20:39 PM

I agree with a lot of what others are saying here: It's my money, and I'll spend it how I see fit.

I recently started taking my dog to a chiropractor, and some of my co-workers are giving me grief for spending so much money on "just" a dog. I get the distinct impression that they view it as a frivolous waste of money... and yet some of these same people will go out drinking every weekend, or buy designer handbags. How is that any less frivolous?

Besides, I figure I owe it to my dog. I take her to obedience trials one to two times a month, class twice a week, and train almost every day. If I'm going to ask her to do that much because I enjoy it as a hobby, then she deserves the best care I can give her.

Crystal September 24th, 2009 12:29:51 PM

I find it particularly ridiculous and hypocritical to uphold the sentiment that pet owners should feel guilty about spending money on their pets rather than donating it to helping the disadvantaged.  For one thing, this assumes that every dollar we invest in our pets would typically be given to charities for people, which is completely illogical and wrong.  If my money wasn't being spent on my cat's food and vet bills, then I would probably put it towards paying off my student loans or a trip, etc.  I do donate to some charaties with causes that I support, but that doesn't mean that every extra dollar that I have goes to them. 

Secondly, as has already been pointed out, we live in a nation of luxuries.  How can you criticize someone for speding money on toys and pampering for their pets when we have people who buy designer handbags, overpriced luxury cars, etc?  At least pets are living and capable of feeling emotion.  They give us comfort and companionship, and I see no reason to feel bad for spending money supporting my cat's health and well being.

According to Annie's logic, I should feel guily for eating at a restaurant while starving children die in Ethiopia, because the money that I could have saved by eating at home would probably buy them meal.  Is she going to say that she has held off on buying unnecessary things, like books, music, movies, just so she can donate more to people who can't afford essentials like clothing and food?  People just can't live like that, it would too emotionally draining on us.

Tanya September 24th, 2009 12:30:36 PM

Already bought "Speaking For Spot" Dr. Khuly, awesome book!! 

I have been shamelessly plugging it over at AddisonDogs and on the yahoo support group for Addison Dogs as well.

So many of our members complain that they do not know how to talk to their Vets and they WANT to be partners in their Addisonian Dogs care and now we have a great resource to point them too. Thanks Dr. Kay for a great book.

Elizabeth - from Nova Scotia September 24th, 2009 12:33:54 PM

There is an epidemic lack of compassion in today's society, and you can see it in the comments quoted above.  Our ancestors lived a different kind of life, and mostly had to kill their own food in order to survive, so it served a purpose to objectify animals in order to avoid emotional attachment to what would become tomorrow's meal. 

Not so today, because we've changed the way we live and have distanced ourselves from what ends up on the dinner table.  For some, that has created the opportunity to develop deeper compassionate bonds with animals, whereas for others there is a refusal to grow beyond the mindset of the grandparents' generation.  And yes, the same people who whine about the money "wasted" on pet care are the first to go out in their Hummers and max out their credit cards buying junk they don't need from Walmart.  They certainly aren't the ones showing compassion to humanity in any concrete way.  They're the "every man for himself" and "all that counts is that I've got mine" crowd. 

Louie's Mom September 24th, 2009 12:39:05 PM

I have a dog instead of a $50,000 gas-guzzling SUV.  She costs less and gives me more.  I can bet anything some of these pet haters like "Anne" have such a vehicle.  How many of these people have large HD TVs and DVD recorders and surround sound speaker systems?  How many of these people live in big fancy houses that they don't actually need?  How many of these people spend money to water their lawn when people in other places have droughts?  All of that seems much more selfish to me than taking care of my dog (who is family but is not a surrogate child as I don't want children...I wanted dogs).

I think people like "Anne" need to get over themselves and stop acting like they're the moral judge of the planet.  I'd imagine if we really examined her life, we might just find she's not the perfect volunteer/charity person she tries to come across as.

Crysania September 24th, 2009 01:12:09 PM

I also have Dr. Kay's book and think it's a terrific resource.  And of course I'm not the Anne who wrote that diatribe!  I've been spending an unusually high amount on vet care recently and with several senior dogs and I also spend time and money helping find homes for shelter and rescue dogs.  We hear the same thing in animal rescue - not one penny should be spent on finding homes for dogs and cats until every child has a home and enough to eat.

What I say to people who have the "you care more about pets than people" attitude is that compassion is compassion, whether for people or animals.  There is nothing wrong with wanting to reduce the pain and suffering of animals - for me it comes from the same place as my compassion for humans.  The enemy of compassion is the ability to close your heart by drawing lines defining who is/isn't part of your family, community, country, tribe, race, and so forth.

Anne September 24th, 2009 01:24:35 PM

I'm laughing because so many have beat me to the punch. We drive an economy car -- inexpensive to buy, maintain and drive. It is our only car. We buy our clothes from discount outlets -- the idea of a $700 suit, much less a $700 pair of shoes, makes us laugh. We just bought an HD TV -- under $1000. The one in our bedroom is about 5 years old. Vacations -- seldom. I could go on.

Instead of these kind of luxuries, we have our dogs, who give us great joy and love. Making them happy makes me happy. Through them, I have made great friends and learned much. So yes, I have the right to spend my money on them if I choose.

As for helping others, we do so every day in our profession. I lose no sleep on that score. Rather, I'd like to know how much Mr. and Ms. Disgruntled gave or did to help others in need in the last year. Bring it on, folks, inquiring minds want to know.

Susan September 24th, 2009 01:38:00 PM

I agree with the sentiments I see posted here. I remember early iin my life when my psychologist father assured me that animals don't think, or have feelings (emotionally). I was really young but I kept arguing with him, as he sat in his chair with his favorite Siamese cat. But I knew that what he was saying was not true. All my life I've lived with cats, then dogs. Because of extreme problems in my family I believe they saved my "life" in the sense of giving me affection and comfort while I was not receiving those things from parents. One of my earliest baby pics shows me lying on my parents' bed with, yep, a cat curled up near me--he also brought lizards for me when it was my lunchtime.

Research now supports the contention that animals and their development are very important to human development. And we humans & the dogs & cats have learned how to live with each other. But unfortunately in most places animals are regarded as property only; legally akin to a chair. Blame Aristotle for this--he made it certain that animals would be regarded as only being here in service to us. (and some religions) His heirarchy became part of the legal doctrine that now continues to exist. Changes are beginning to happen, but it takes time.

The people who criticize us for having animals, or companions, or pets, are culturally bound to this idea, even though now, knowing what we do, it doesn't make sense. (aside from someone traumatized by an animal, or those cultures that have other beliefs about what animals are and mean). Something not everyone may know is that the US gov't. sponsored a project that resulted in a bibliography of human-animal research that was published in 1980. It is large and impressive. So why hasn't that been followed up, when even then it was well established that human/animal relationships were often of benefit to both?? And of course research in the last 29 years has continued to support and expand our knowledge of this.

I've followed this stuff for years b/c I'm interested for many reasons. Therre's really no excuse for that attitude and ignorance today. Indeed we are still in the dark ages with our thoughts and rules about animals--we need to get information out clearly, and quickly!

A final aside--I don't believe anymore that animals give us unconditional love--I believe they feel whatever their version of hatred, pain, disgust, distrust, etc is. They go along with even highly abusive owners b/c they have no other viable option, and they have to depend on their abusers--so they, like children form traumatic attachment bonds.

SH September 24th, 2009 02:07:47 PM

Almost everyone has the same idea about that Anne, and her ilk, and I'm in agreement. I commented on Dr. Nancy's blog, also asking the same question.

"I have to wonder just how much that commenter does to help others – especially “just not family” others. I’ve found that those who make the most vociferous (and, to my thinking, rude) comments about how “we” shouldn’t care so much about anything that isn’t another human, don’t care about other humans all that much either.

Does Anne volunteer with Meals on Wheels, or at a local senior center, by visiting or helping with activities? Does she work with at-risk youth in any way? Does she even knit blankets and caps for premature infants at a local hospital? Has she organized a book collection or personal products drive for members of the military? I know active dog, cat, and bird lovers who all spend what, I’m sure Anne would think was too much, time, attention and money on their animal friends – and yet are involved in multiple things that directly help other people.

I have also met numerous people who bitch about others spending money on animals (their own money, btw, which if they spent it on an expensive car or electronic stuff, would never get the same comment), who don’t help anyone other than themselves and maybe their immediate human family. The help they do give, to anyone, always seems to come with strings attached. “If you think/act/behave the way I find acceptable, then I’ll help you, but otherwise, not a chance.” That is not a generous heart. Give me an animal lover any day over a narrowed judgemental one."

I was really hoping that that Anne would have read the comments and spoken up about what she does to help others, but she didn't.  But that's par for the course.  I've met a large number of people who think like she does and they do not spend any time (unless forced by school or court decree) helping other people, unless it's in a narrow way and dictated by their narrow religious views.  (And when they help in those ways, they are outspoken, rude, and mean to anyone who falls even slightly short of their 'standards.')  There have been a very few (maybe a half dozen) people that I've personally met (so it certainly isn't the whole world, but...) people who have told me (in various terms) that compassion for animals is senseless, who actually have volunteered their time with charitable efforts to help other people.  I just wish they'd all put their time and efforts where their mouths are, but I'm sure that wish will never come true.

KateH September 24th, 2009 02:48:09 PM

I am a vet, and have two dogs, six cats and four children. I think the human animal bond is so important - and happily spend money on my pets, even though it restricts my travel and car purchasing power... but I do worry when the pets take preference over the children of the same family!  As a vet, I often made decisions with owners, but I soon learned that taking the needs of the whole family into account was essential as depriving them of food or a roof to pay for major surgery etc was nto in the best interests of the people. I was surprised how many people seemed to care more for their pets than their children though.

www.fourpawsandwhiskers.blogspot.com

Fi from Four Paws and Whiskers September 24th, 2009 03:05:01 PM

I will simply share my favorite bumper sticker and leave it to my sister and brother pet-lovers to apply it in this case:

Mean people are hurting.

Missing Dancer, Winzer, Sequoia, Blackie, etc, and loving Selena September 24th, 2009 03:33:44 PM

@Fi - are you trying to tell us that you really saw parents taking food and shelter away from their children in order to treat a pet?  'Cause I gotta say, I absolutely find that incredibly hard to believe.  I know there are lunatics who shouldn't have kids or pets, but if there really was an instance like that, the parent probably has issues that really aren't limited to fixing Fido over feeding a kid.

KateH September 24th, 2009 03:57:26 PM

different strokes for different folks, i guess.  not everyone is an animal lover -and not everyone who "loves" their dog or cat or goldfish considers them a part of the family.  surely there are farmers and ranchers out there who have dogs to work on the farm. they're cared for and valued, but they're not pets -they're indentured servants of sorts.

those who do not understand the concept of the human-animal bond are missing out on a great part of life, imho.

Dennis Leon, DVM September 24th, 2009 04:57:22 PM

Dog is God spelled backwards.

I am alive today because I read people pretty well.  27 years in a police car in Miami....

What I have learned.  It is "OK" to say that you don't want a pet.  I can understand that in a person.  What I know in my heart to be so is that when someone says they "don't like animals," there is something wrong with them and best steer clear.

There were people with whom I was "chatting" when I was in uniform.  Certain things were said or actions made/not made that caused me to gently bring my elbow in over the butt of my gun.  A little extra protection over that which could keep me alive or kill me.

When someone says they don't like dogs, I now do a "mental elbow over the gun butt."  - and I back away from having anything to do with them.  Something is wrong in their brain.

Carolyn September 24th, 2009 05:08:15 PM

I've had someone insist to me that animals don't love us back; they only act the way they do in pure self-interest.

We laugh at that statement every time the pets do something that is clearly not in their own direct self-interest, for no visible reason other than affection.  For example, my teddy-bear dog occasionally climbs into bed to cuddle me closely when I get sick at night.  She's got a lot of fur and doesn't like to stay cuddled for long; she doesn't usually spend time in my bed because it's uncomfortable for her.  But when she realizes I am sick, she's right there.  How does "waking up to make herself uncomfortable" translate to "direct self interest"?  Nah, it really doesn't.

I tend to think that valuing life and rejecting suffering is a symptom of progression as a civilization, not a symptom of "a society in trouble."  As veterinary research shows up that pets are healthier and in less pain if we do X, it becomes accepted practice to do X.  That's a GOOD thing.  Moving away from ignorance and away from pain is a GOOD thing, even if it's "just an animal."  Those animals have nerves just like we do, and anyone sane who has experienced chronic pain would not wish it on a guppy.

Incidentally, I *did* do some volunteering with seniors when I was a kid.  This is part of the reason I volunteer and work with ANIMALS now.

Galadriel September 24th, 2009 06:24:01 PM

KateH, I agree that those who put their pets over and above their own children have bigger issues but I've seen it too.  I suspect it's partly because we love pets and pets love unconditionally; not so much parents/children, well yes we do but there's also struggles there...  It is a bit much to ask anyone who has children to understand how one can say that pets are the "same" as children as there is some amount of balancing to be done there.  Much as I struggle with my own child, equating my pets to my child?  Nope.  And I suspect the "just pets" is a reaction to "pets are like children".  The term "pet" is an elevation from "animal" for many and I don't see the need to call them "quasi-children", at least not as a defense.  Since I see from the comments that even saying that is likely to get me flamed, I'll stop there.

PJBoosinger September 24th, 2009 06:41:39 PM

"Since I see from the comments that even saying that is likely to get me flamed, I'll stop there." Why do you say things like that, PJ? Are you trying to say that the people commenting here can't be polite? There are a few nutters on every blog (okay, some blogs have no other commenters than nutters, but this isn't one of those), but this thread hasn't gotten past warm yet, so it seems you're the one with matches in hand.

And, as with Fi's comment, I'll ask you - are you trying to tell us that you really saw parents taking food and shelter away from their children in order to treat a pet?  I'm really wondering about these odd examples of parenthood, and what did you or Fi do or say when you saw this happening?  I don't know about her, but I can't believe you didn't say something. 

KateH September 24th, 2009 07:24:51 PM

I worked in wildlife rescue for a number of years. I remember many people wanting to know why I would waste my time trying to save a squirrel, opossum, etc. I finally realized that I did not need to defend myself or my choices. I loved my work and did it because it was important to me.

I got the same heat from supposed friends when I adopted an abused dog years ago. He was such a mess physically and emotionally. I had people ask why I wanted to waste my time and money on him. I have come to realize that trying to explain my love of animals and involvement in rescue is similar to trying to explain political or religious views. Everyone has their own opinion, and it is very difficult to change someone's mind. I know that I am happy in my life and happy with my four dogs. That is what is important to me.

Susan G. September 24th, 2009 08:29:52 PM

"are you trying to tell us that you really saw parents taking food and shelter away from their children in order to treat a pet?"  Yes and it actually happens regularly with poor families that have pets, particularly when times get rough and they're faced with ugly choices.  How many times have we heard of pets left behind in the abandoned house?  Had those people chosen not to have a pet, perhaps they could have kept their shelter.  The person who chooses to have a surgery on a pet today for a cost of $3,000 may lose their job tomorrow and then be without a house within 3 months.

An annual visit to the vet for a dog may well be the family's food budget for a week.  While that may be difficult for some to understand, it is reality for many although you're not likely to see them on the net since they don't have computers, internet services, many luxuries many of us take for granted.  We pet owners know the benefits a pet brings so why is it difficult to understand a family might make some extraordinary sacrifices to keep one?

How many times has Dr. K pointed out her services being stolen and others have chimed in similarly?  How many of those are people who have already gone into arrears on their house payments/rent?  Maxed their credit cards to eat?  Truth is none of you know and it's easier to call them willful theives and rail against them than recognize they may be in trouble financially and facing a very ugly choice.

Has anyone considered that many who say "just a pet" are trying to keep the distance to make that ugly choice or to numb their pain because they've already done so?  Or just tough guys who can't...

Yes, I've had the lovely discussion with some who are making those tough financial decisions.  I try to help them look at the choices but the final option around here when one is in a financial crunch is to take the beloved pet to a kill shelter and pray so the rest of the family eats.  It's a sucky choice when someone cares about the pet, when an entire family cares about a pet.  I don't like telling someone to take their pet to a place where death is a near certainty but I will because I don't equate them with children.  Many on here do so and so I don't think I'm unreasonable to expect flaming for saying something contrary to that belief.

Furthermore, the title of this day's blog describes the comment "they're just pets" as an "angry jab" which doesn't exactly set a tone for discussing what the comment even means but makes presumptions and reaches a conclusion and follows up by concluding that those who "don't get it" are the "contrarian contingent".  Dolittler does seem to be trending more toward the "jump on the bandwagon or don't comment" train or maybe it is just the feeling I get from some of the other comments.  Personally, I can't imagine calling a pet a family member and NOT being willing to take food off my plate to take care of their needs but then I'd do that for my pets even though I don't equate them with being children.

As for being among the "contrarians".  Yep, proud of it although I'll be hanged how Dr. K knew of my Indian heritage.  But then I'm amongst those who think a world where Celebs hear nothing but praise is a bad place for the Celebs who, all too often, end up dead as a result of all that faint praise.

PJBoosinger September 24th, 2009 08:35:27 PM

@dr. b: i have a friend who calls her pets her "fur-kids." i think it's kinda cute, but she is also kinda kooky.

@KateH: you're on fire today! i love it!

@carolyn: i met a girl at a party back in 2001. when i told her i was a veterinarian she replied "eeew, i don't like animals." the jaws of everyone around her dropped to the ground and she was treated like a leper for the next 20 minutes ...until she had to leave the party.  i can understand "i'm scared of dogs" or "i'm uncomfortable with animals" but "i don't like animals" is a big red flag for me. (but since i keep my glock in the safe, i can't put my elbow over it :)

Dennis Leon, DVM September 24th, 2009 08:40:14 PM

Part of me wonders what the hell is wrong with these people...

The other part kind of feels sorry for them... I can't imagine not feeling a strong emotional attachment to an animal. There would be something missing in my life without that bond.

Ali September 24th, 2009 08:41:57 PM

PJ, PJ, PJ.... (sigh) I have no words. Except I wish for you a happier life and a sunnier outlook.

Deanna September 24th, 2009 09:24:13 PM

"are you trying to tell us that you really saw parents taking food and shelter away from their children in order to treat a pet?" Yes and it actually happens regularly with poor families that have pets, particularly when times get rough and they're faced with ugly choices. How many times have we heard of pets left behind in the abandoned house? Had those people chosen not to have a pet, perhaps they could have kept their shelter. The person who chooses to have a surgery on a pet today for a cost of $3,000 may lose their job tomorrow and then be without a house within 3 months.

BZZZT!

That's not taking food and shelter away from their children in order to treat a pet. That's having a major expense, followed by becoming unemployed--which could happen to any of us, including those of us whom you personally believe have enough wealth to be justified in having a pet.

An annual visit to the vet for a dog may well be the family's food budget for a week. While that may be difficult for some to understand, it is reality for many although you're not likely to see them on the net since they don't have computers, internet services, many luxuries many of us take for granted. We pet owners know the benefits a pet brings so why is it difficult to understand a family might make some extraordinary sacrifices to keep one?

PJ, there were two separate periods in my childhood when we were dependent on food stamps to make the family budget work. We had pets the whole time--usually two, a dog and a cat. I guess in your eyes there was something morally confused about my parents (the first of those periods) or my mother (the second period, after my father died), that instead of taking the animals to the local kill shelter to take their chances, instead they remained with us, got fed, and got all the medical care they needed, not just their annual physicals. And, yeah, something medically disastrous might have happened to one of the animals. Something medically disastrous might have happened to one of the humans, too. In fact, something medically disastrous did happen to my father--he had a massive heart attack. And if he hadn't--in the midst of having the heart attack that killed him--had the presence of mind to refuse to be admitted to the local hospital and insist on being take to the VA hospital, we'd have lost everything because of that.

Yeah, sometimes, taking care of the pets made things very tight. Sometimes taking care of the people made things very tight. But my dad with his 3-5 pack a day cigarette habit didn't get put out, either, despite his habit being a lot more expensive (and in the end, desperately more costly) than the dog and cat's annoying need for annual vet visits, shots, heartworm preventative for the dog, treatment for various illnesses and small injuries for both of them...

But if you have a real example of people actually taking food and shelter away from their kids in order to take care of their pets, by all means, tell us about it.

Lis September 24th, 2009 09:41:02 PM

"whom you personally believe have enough wealth to be justified in having a pet" Huh? "wealth"? I'd be more inclined to defend the right to have a pet if it gets basic food, much love, and zero medical care than that one needs "wealth" to have a pet.

Lis, I didn't pull those fact scenarios out of the air as hypotheticals.  Like most good hypotheticals, they came for experience and I've seen examples just like those.  I don't feel the need to go into detail on people's personal lives like some.  Probably a hold over from my days in practice.  Giving specific facts of real people at some point discloses enough so they can be identified and that would be a breach of ethics.  Although I haven't been in practice for years, people still tend to think what they disclose to me is protected no matter how many times I tell them it isn't; nonetheless, I don't tend to violate peoples' privacy that way.

"something medically disastrous might have happened to one of the animals"  So, because it didn't happen to you, it can't happen?  More likely means it happens often to people and then they have to make choices.  Why would you think that no one would choose to pay a medical or vet bill rather for critical care even if that means doing without food for a few days through the month?  (and I'm staying far far away from those issues you still have with/about your father)

PJBoosinger September 24th, 2009 10:04:03 PM

I believe it was Gandhi who said that the greatness of a nation can be measured in how it treats its animals.  I agree, compassion cannot be quantified based upon what species you bestow it upon.  Love is love, if you give it to a human or a cat who is someone else to judge?   A person who treats an animal with the same respect as a human being is not "wasting" compassion better spent on a human.

And by the way, I used to work with Dr. Kay and she is an incredible human being, not to mention an amazing vet.  Can't wait to get my hands on her book!

KSAkemi September 24th, 2009 11:15:21 PM

My "issues" with and about my father?

His cigarette habit was expensive. He knew it, and it was only one of several reasons why he kept trying to quit--something much harder to do in those days, because it didn't have the same support.

And in the end it cost us HIM--did you not get that part? Or do you not think of that as a high cost?

"something medically disastrous might have happened to one of the animals" So, because it didn't happen to you, it can't happen?

That's, um, a really impressive reach. I mean, since it involves a direct contradiction of what I actually said. And you're making it more and more plain that you believe that people below some income level you've determined in your head is sufficient, have no real business having pets. Nothing medically disastrous did happen to the pets; it could have, it surely could have, but it didn't.

likely means it happens often to people and then they have to make choices.

What do you mean by "often" ? What's your basis for the claim?

Certainly it happens sometimes. And most adults I know would short their own meals long before the kids.'

Also, some people think there's real value in teaching kids compassion, and that the well-being of others is worth sacrificing something for. But, hey, different strokes for different folks, right?

Lis September 24th, 2009 11:19:46 PM

" Lis, I didn't pull those fact scenarios out of the air as hypotheticals. Like most good hypotheticals, they came for experience and I've seen examples just like those. I don't feel the need to go into detail on people's personal lives like some. Probably a hold over from my days in practice. Giving specific facts of real people at some point discloses enough so they can be identified and that would be a breach of ethics. Although I haven't been in practice for years, people still tend to think what they disclose to me is protected no matter how many times I tell them it isn't; nonetheless, I don't tend to violate peoples' privacy that way."

PJ, you're not getting the point of what Lis or I asked you. Whether that's because you're thinking so far above us, or that you're being deliberately obtuse, I don't know, nor do I care.  Your attitude of veiled superiority is showing, and even though Lis called you on it (read that part after the BZZZT! again), I'll also try to explain what we mean, because your examples are ... odd.

"How many times have we heard of pets left behind in the abandoned house?" In this case the parents aren't showing any preference for the pet, since they left it behind, probably without food or water and without telling anyone it was there or at least taking it to a shelter.  Now, if they'd left a kid in the abandoned house and took the pet, then you'd have made your point.

"Had those people chosen not to have a pet, perhaps they could have kept their shelter."  Yeah, it was the $400 they spent on food and medical for the dog that caused them to lose their house.   Yes, most of us would spend what we could reasonably foresee as within our means to provide care for our pets.  And yes, it is conceivable that AFTER one spends X amount of money that's not in the normal budget - on ANYTHING (from a toy such as 2 ATVs/Jet Skis to medical care for a human family memeber, and anything inbetween) - financial problems can make you lose your house.  However, to blame it on the pet, when it's so seldom that money that pushes people over the edge, is just not sensible.

"The person who chooses to have a surgery on a pet today for a cost of $3,000 may lose their job tomorrow and then be without a house within 3 months."  And again, if they'd spent the $3,000 on something else - say Grandma's funeral - and lost their job the next day, and then their house withing 3 months - it would mean that they shouldn't have spent the money on Grandma?  Blaming whatever happened before, and saying that if A hadn't cost so much, then B wouldn't have happened, is a specious argument.  I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but I think that's maybe an ips post facto thingy, or something like that.  I'll cede that you would know the correct terminology and stuff to explain it correctly, and I'll try to listen with the dark roots of my blondness so I'll understand.  

KateH September 25th, 2009 12:14:02 AM

Dr. K. I'm still interested in learning how to kill the spammers.  They posted here and on the rabies thread that I know of.  I think you have my e-mail.  I'm willing to learn.

KateH September 25th, 2009 12:18:01 AM

KateH: I'll email you.

As to the concept Fl raised:

"I do worry when the pets take preference over the children of the same family! As a vet, I often made decisions with owners, but I soon learned that taking the needs of the whole family into account was essential as depriving them of food or a roof to pay for major surgery etc was nto in the best interests of the people."

I think all compassionate veterinarians struggle with this on a regular basis. There are plenty of clients you fear are making decisions that could lead them to foreclosure or bankruptcy. Though the same is true whether you work retail or practice human medicine, it's somehow much more personal in the one-on-one veterinary environment where economic counseling/negotiating estimates is an unfortunate aspect of our interactions.

Ultimately, however, it's up to the clients to make wise financial decisions and we need to saty out of that process. But it's a hard thing to watch when you know families just can't make ends meet and saving an animal requires a $1,500 outlay.

Still, I'm not sure I ever felt that a client cared more for their pet than their children. But then, chidren have so many more safety nets in society that I can see why people might irresponsibly opt to pay for a pet's medical care and simply cross their fingers hoping their family doesn't suffer as a result.

Dr. Patty Khuly September 25th, 2009 07:33:03 AM

Okay, I have to add my two cents worth here. I have a senior cat who was on the first wave of the toxic pet food. My former vet then prescribed Metacam so her kidneys took a double whammy and she has had health issues since. She has required 2 surgeries (not cheap), had feeding tubes four times and is on medication and has regular check ups (also not cheap). Frankly, I didn't have it in me to discontinue treatment when she was improving. I also have two cats with heart disease who require extra care and mediation. Has it affected my budget and lifestyle? Absolutely! Would I do it again? Absolutely!

I also do animal rescue and donate to "people" charities as much as possible. Why do people think it's an "either/or" situation? Compassion is compassion!

What I don't do are: expensive cars, fancy vacations (any vacations), designer clothes, new furniture, big house, etc. It's my money and my choice and I'm tired of people passing judgement on me because I have chosen to do the best I can for the animals I love.

And I do feel sorry for those who are missing out on the love and companionship of an animal - that's something that money simply cannot buy.

dottie September 25th, 2009 08:52:53 AM

Oops - that's medication, not mediation! Wish there was an edit feature here . . .

dottie September 25th, 2009 08:54:21 AM

I used to buy designer jeans and couture shoes...until I discovered the sweet mysteries of expensive radiation treatments for Sophie's brain tumor. I don't think I ever spent my money in such a beautiful way.

Dr. Patty Khuly September 25th, 2009 10:09:39 AM

I am new here.  Without going into detail, I can tell you that in the short time we have had our rescue Border Collie mix she has done more to serve man and the Earth than most humans do in the same amount of time.  AKC Good Canine Citizen, event though she's not TDI certified (yet, we dont' have TDI in our area) she's worked with handicapped as well as humans that hate dogs or show fear.  Best of all, she has turned my wife and her mother into dog people.  She greets people at the downtown coffee shop and brightens the day of the Lowes employees when she frequents their store.  Furthermore, she reads me unlike any other person.  Even when my wife can't cheer me up after a bummer day, Tina can.  She has a way of showing me and others what's really important.  What human being does that?

I do agree, a yipping, unmannered dog that poops everywhere and proves aggressive or in some other way is counterproductive is a waste.  Same goes for a cat that is aggressive or tears up furniture.  However, can't the same thing be said of a bratty kid or an "entitled" adult human?

Eric Bechtol September 25th, 2009 10:39:44 AM

Erich: But more to your point, aren't all unmannered/untrained pets the direct result of human irresponsibility? And neurotic/aggressive ones are often just diseased. With humans, it's harder to grant a pass, I agree. They, at least, have generally been given more tools with which to take responsibility for their own behavior. Children, like pets, also prove exceptional in this regard. 

Dr. Patty Khuly September 25th, 2009 10:58:36 AM

I think people underestimate that helping pets also helps people.  The human-animal bond can be powerful and therapuetic.  I volunteer with an organization that provides financial assistance for veterinary bills.  For many folks, their pet(s) may be the only emotional stability they have.  We see a lot of elderly or disabled, the kids and grandkids don't visit anymore, and the pet is the only thing they have. We are helping those people as much or more than we are helping the pets physical needs by helping pay costly vet bills.  Recently, of course, we've seen a lot of unemployed who were able to afford the unexpected previously.  These people are already emotionally distraught from their financial situation and the thought of losing a constant trusted companion is unbearable during a time of turmoil.

From a personal standpoint, I have been there.  Years ago, recently divorced in my early 20's, I had nothing except my 2 cats.  As luck would have it, one of my cats shattered his femoral head and needed costly surgery that I could not afford.  I managed to find a way to get it done.  However, the prospect of having to euthanize my young cat over something as simple as a broken leg was devastating.  They were the only thing at that time in my life that provided emotional support in a chaotic time. 

I don't think caring for pets and caring for people are mutually exclusive.  Caring for the least of those breeds compassion.

Heather September 25th, 2009 11:22:19 PM

I am involved in cat rescue, and yes, I get these angry responses, especially from applicants for my cats who are denied. "I'm just trying to get a CAT, not adopt a CHILD." I have also heard people talk about how many third-world countries need help, etc. I ask those people, "Where do YOU volunteer? What group are you helping?" Generally they are too busy, don't have extra money, have children, health problems, whatever excuse that keeps them from helping animals also keeps them from helping people. It's not that they think everyone (includng themselves) should be out helping people, it's that they think *I* should be doing it.

One of the problems I find doing cat rescue is that many low-income people are fond of animals, and try to help stray cats. Being unable to pay for spay/neuter, of course the stray cats reproduce and the family has a problem. Sometimes these folks can't even get transportation to a free spay/neuter clinic.

I help animals. I used to expend all his energy and money on helping people. I have a choice. Right now, this is my choice. Many people choose not to help at all. And they are often those complaining about the people who do.

Mickey September 26th, 2009 07:29:51 AM

It makes no sense to me to debate whether animals can love or not. There is a real problem with people who cannot distinguish human from animal life. Afterall, there are no animals who have formed "Save the starving people" societies.

However, it is exactly our human ability to care for others that  that binds us to our pets. Those who lack the ability to commit to a relationship where the other is totally dependent upon you miss an opportunity to explore the very characteristic that sets us apart from the animals. They miss being fully human.

The reality is that there are few in America, for all our Sunny Beaching, that are in real poverty. And we have been jaded enough by scammers that we are disassociated from pictures of starving children on TV. Having children or pets is the only way most of us can enter into such a relationship. And its not a bad idea to fail at having pets before having children.

Children are much harder to flush down the toilet than goldfish.

Bob Jones September 26th, 2009 03:18:50 PM

Bob Jones, I agree with the rest but have to take issue with "The reality is that there are few in America... that are in real poverty."  Even if one defines real poverty as 10% of those below the poverty level, that would still be 4 Million in America, many of them children.  I can't see that as "few".  Statistics are just numbers but those are 4 million real people and I have trouble pretending they don't exist when I see them in encampments.  We push them out of sight but that doesn't mean they don't exist; merely that we make it even more difficult for them to get back up on the horse of life without access to what's needed to get a job these days or stay in nominally decent health to keep a job while we pretend they don't exist or, if they do, it's their own fault somehow.  Of course, I couldn't help noticing the dog with one of the residents at in the video. 

Texas continues to have "growth" and lower unemployment and yet the wages are so poor that we have over 1 in 3 adults who don't have health insurance and some of the worst and unavailable public health systems in the nation, something people don't know before spending their last dollars to get here in hopes of finding a job of some sort.  Hopefully, they'll at least know that after Dr. Oz has given it some publicity.

We have no idea how many pets end up homeless along with people or because people can no longer afford them; not even decent statistics on how many are turned in to shelters for this reason.  While I agree that everyone has the right to spend their money as they please, I can't help wonder how many more homes there would be for pets if we could get the most basic items to humans.  There was a time when the poor showed up on our doorsteps, at our churches, just like lost dogs and cats, and we seemed to see them back then - at least for a while.

We're creating a new third world right here within our own borders.

PJBoosinger http://pjboosinger.viviti.com/ September 27th, 2009 02:28:03 PM

I have worked in tramp camps for years. By far most who are there are there by choice, and they are not starving. If they move into the shelter, they get $300 per month on top of the SSI and disability checks that they usually collect from multiple states.  Our poverty level is a luxury level compared to my friend's community in Bangladesh where UN wells which were dug to help during the drought are contaminated by arsenic. 

When we have thousands and hundreds of thousands die of starvation and drought like in Bangladesh, rather than have an epidemic of overweight homeless I will believe we have real poverty.

Bob Jones September 27th, 2009 05:02:37 PM

Sadly, we do have thousands dying of starvation too it just doesn't get covered by our media.  We also have thousands dying from diabetes complications due to lack of proper food.  Interesting that we simply see them as fat by choice.  If you find those in the "tramp camps" so objectionable, why do you work with them instead of those you see as actually in need?  Poison water?  Have you seen the percentage of school water sources (let alone the ones homes have access to) that are contaminated with substances every bit as hazardous as arsenic?  I don't know what kind of benefits your "tramps" are getting but I'm pretty sure they aren't getting SSI from multiple sources and, if they are getting so much, that's too bad since so many women with children don't even have shelters to go to at all in this country.  Here in Houston, such a woman will be lucky to get $450/month for her and her children, some health care for the kids but none for her, $250 in food stamps (which doesn't go far if one doesn't have a frig, stove, etc.), and on to an 18+ month waiting list for housing.

I suppose having incredibly poor food which leads to diabetes and death is better than outright starving in Bangladesh but not by much in my book.

PJBoosinger September 27th, 2009 10:57:52 PM

You project too much.. I never said objectionable. I said they weren't in poverty compared to those who are.  And yes they travel once a month to another state so they can collect double.   Even if one has no government check, food, clothing and shelter are in abundance here. Their need isn't physical.

If someone calls for a food basket, the person delivering it is likely to stumble over three other agencies delivering at the same time.  All the schools serve free breakfasts for kids whether they need it or not.

It is illegal for an ER room to turn away anyone here, insurance or not. That's what's breaking the system. People without insurance using the ER rooms for non-emergency care. If someone is starving here, it is because someone has them locked in a closet, not because its not available.

I was on the board of the Pregnancy resource center for 12 years. I help start the downtown hospital outreach program where doctors go on the street looking for people to treat.

My house has been the release point for people coming out the hospital who cannot be released to the street. They have stayed with us for weeks before returning to their "home" on the street. I have been a payee for those deemed incompetant to handle their own finances.

I have been on a committee for the railroad called as an expert on tramps when they were trying to redesign overpasses to prevent people from living on the railroad right of ways. 

I strong-armed a man who was a recent double amputee because of diabetes into the VA hospital and single handedly ran his tree trimming business until they could take him off of IV antibiotics. I paid his rent and worked for nothing.

So with 27 years experience I don't know nuthin... so I still don't believe we have real poverty. I would rather be homeless here than have an average income in many other countries.

And who says I don't work with those I consider actually in need?  Why would you think I know anything about Bangladesh?   If people are starving in Houston then go do something about it. I'm kinda busy here.  And no, I am not a paid preacher. I have worked the docks, and construction, taught school, done graphics, programming and industrial maintenance.  Most of the last 27 years I have worked two jobs so my wife could stay home and raise the kids. I am dumb enough to think that individuals make a differnce in individual lives rather than solving global problems that others pontificate about. I don't need or want accolades, just confessing that I am too stoopid to solve the world's problems so I do what I can. So my opinion doesn't count.

Bob Jones September 28th, 2009 02:54:53 AM

Sorry... I was tired.  Someone should delete that.

Bob Jones September 28th, 2009 02:59:37 AM

My apologies Bob.  I'm sure you've done far more than I.

PJBoosinger September 28th, 2009 04:48:20 AM

Late to the post (vacation) and haven't had read all the comments yet, but i always thought that Fred over at One Bark at a Time summed this issue up quite well on his below blog post (language alert)

http://onebarkatatime.blogspot.com/2009/03/question-of-great-stupidity.html

Sarah September 28th, 2009 02:41:22 PM

I agree with the writer's observation that people who are caring toward animals are more caring toward humans as well.

But I also resent the fact that kindness toward animals invariably has to be justified by relating it to some benefit for humans.  For example, when people want animal abuse to be taken seriously, they must resort to citing the statistics on how animal abusers go on to abuse humans (likening animal abuse to a gateway drug).  I understand that this needs to be argued in order to get anything done, but it pisses me off.

It's wrong in it's own right. 

Moreover, the truth that many of us believe is that it is fine to choose to help animals and devote time and care to them whether or not one devotes the same amount of time to helping people.  Some of us generally prefer animals to the randomly selected human being, all things being equal.  I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

Stefani September 29th, 2009 07:48:45 PM

The more I see of man, the more I like dogs" - Madame de Stael

Marc October 1st, 2009 04:08:27 PM

I'd like to know what Anne does for those poor dieing people in africa. She can complain that we should be saving people with the money we are spending on our animals, but I could say the same about her. Instead of buying that nice new flat screen or cable tv, why not donate that money to the poor starving people?

ThundercatsAngel October 8th, 2009 05:50:17 AM

Hi

Sorry - forgot to subscribe to comments and missed all this great discussion!

As vets, we often need to help clients make choices... hard ones at that - and when the family is short of money, I realised that the needs of the family had ot be put first. I still think that.  If they still make the choice to treat - that is their choice - but they must not be made to feel bad for not treating the animal as long as it is humanely euthanised if there willbe suffering etc...however, the case that sticks in my mind was where the owners were fawning all over the injured animal while the rather neglected snotty toddler/child wandered around the room - and got yelled at and belted and told to shut up - more than once, while they crooned and cuddled the dog. The misplaced values lingered... and I am sure the dog won in their hearts.

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