and 3) it cannibalizes everyone.  The unemployment rate is up to 9.8%.  Where are they getting more tax dollars to spend?  Just depressing to watch the real infrastructure the government should be working on fall to pieces while tax dollars for for things like this.

PJBoosinger October 2nd, 2009 09:34:32 AM

That's insane. Not even because it is taking your business away, to be honest, but because that money could be used for other purposes -- how are your shelters, for example? Or programs to assist impoverished people with providing food for their pets. And that's just assuming you limit the use of the money for pet related purposes.

Susan October 2nd, 2009 09:54:48 AM

I got hammered the other day for comparing mandatory pet licensing with Obamacare's mandatory health insurance. I was told I had a few screws loose. How funny, that 2 days later the same author is complaining about government provided petcare competing with private vets. With just a few changes in terminology this article could be used to denounce Obamacare. I love the line, "Our public funds are way too limited for that".

Ian October 2nd, 2009 09:56:13 AM

With all due respect to all people regardless of opinion, there are tens of thousands of places online to get your fix of political banter in regards to the right vs left and Obama good/bad discussion.  While I do respect and understand the segway to politics by bringing up taxpayer money, neverthless I would respectfully request that a) the reference to politics be disregarded (deleted would be even better) and that  b) we refrain from discussing it here.  The reason being is that for anyone to comment on the post on Obama care is to get into the right vs left/rep vs dem discussion, and frankly, it has no place here.

I work with a person that disagrees with me on everything politics.  One of us is a right leaning mentality, the other left leaning.  But unlike the discussions online, I doubt if the right leaning person is a baby killer or hates animals any more than I think the left leaning person is commiting treason and hates America.  My work associate puts in 20 hours a week at a cat shelter.  I have two cats and a AKC good citizen dog and I donate to the very cat shelter she volunteers for.  We both love animals and we both want the best for them. 

In regards to politics, we discussed it once or twice, enough to know we don't agree with each other.  The one thing, though, is that we respect each other and believe in focusing on what we DO agree on; animal welfare.  I would ask that we focus on the animal discussion and just leave political banter for Drudge and Huffington.

Thanks!

EAB October 2nd, 2009 10:12:54 AM

Now a moment from the world if I was in charge for five minutes:

If someone brings in a dog or cat with a dental issue, or another issue that while it is not life threatening it is something that is causing great pain, I think that you must do what you can for the animal.  However, I think that payment is due upon services rendered and if the person can't pay, then they don't get the animal back.  I think you SHOULD be able to mandate certain procedures as a vet.  If the animal is miserable, then the procedure should be lawfully required and the person SHOULD be required to pay for it  So if the person doesn't bring their animal back for the procedure, the authorities should be able to investigate to verify the issue was taken care of.  This kind of thinking results from me putting pets on the same consideration level as a human which is not a view that the majority of folks would agree with.

Now what you want to charge is really at your discression...<hint, hint> and if the truly impoverished show up, well, you can cut them a break.  In fact, our vet clinic has a donation jar for such things.

EAB October 2nd, 2009 10:39:47 AM

"Though I'm very big on full-service veterinary medicine in a public setting, (including the crucial prophylactic dentistry procedure) I, too, bristle at such niceties when they're offered to the general public on MY dime."

You couldn't have said it better Doc.  When someone makes a lifestyle choice, they should pay the bill not pass it off on the taxpayer. Liberty with responsibility.

I have no complaint against government safety nets, but they too quickly turn to entitlements.

If they get that teeth cleaning machine going I think I'll visit Florida for some dental work. They wouldn't discriminate against my species would they?   ;-)

Bob Jones October 2nd, 2009 10:46:53 AM

Dr K - you didn't mention if the dental machine is primarily for animals who come through the shelter system or for pets of the general public.  I think that makes a difference.  If the machine is primarily to provide services to adoptable animals in the hopes of improving their adoptability, then that sounds a lot better than buying it to subsidize cheapskates.

That said, my initial reaction is to agree that if you can afford the going rate for the service, you should pay for it.  Then, I began to think that there are plenty of people who will buy that Prada bag in lieu of their animal's well-being.  So, realistically, I'd rather they seek some sort of service for the good of the animal, even if I, as a taxpayer, am subsidizing it.

I'm also wondering how many people are really abusing that system.  I'm inclined to think that if you don't care enough to pay the going rate for dental services, you also don't care enough to go to the effort of taking your pet somewhere that charges a reduced rate.  In other words, I think it's just not enough of a priority for some people.

Posey October 2nd, 2009 12:11:37 PM

EAB, If I understand your intent, you think that when you decide an animal needs treatment, it's to be provided (whether or not the owner approves), then you get to demand payment and, if payment isn't forthcoming, you get to hold the pet hostage.  I use the term "hostage" loosely because, if I were the owner of the pet, I'd call that trespass to chattels and theft of property.  And, no that isn't putting animals on the same level with humans, it is something entirely different because humans get to decline treatment.  It does appear to be that arrogant doctor attitude of thinking you know best and should get to act on it, regardless of any other considerations and exclusive of the rights of others.

Although I shouldn't be lecturing on blog etiquette any more than you, perhaps you'd consider commenting on topic if you're going to criticise others for straying :)  Where do you stand on TAX DOLLARS being used for pet dental care, other care?

PJBoosinger http://pjboosinger.viviti.com/ October 2nd, 2009 12:22:26 PM

Believe me, if I thought there was a way to comment on the tax dollars and how they are used in this world without it turning into a political free for all, I certainly would.  But there simply is not, so I will refuse comment.  Seems like there is an inordinately small amount of feedback for this thread so I would guess I am not the only one thinking this way.

EAB October 2nd, 2009 12:54:33 PM

I'm changing the subject a bit to make a hopefully valid point.  Yes, I agree that those who can pay full price for vet services should do so and not expect the taxpayer to help pay the tab.  However,  I do wish there were more low-cost vet clinics where strays could get good care at better rates.  For the past 2 years I have been slammed with vet bills for my pets.  In all the years of owning pets, I've never been relentlessly hit like this   My neighbor and I were taking care of a little kitty who showed up and seemed to belong to no one.  She became quite ill suddenly; only option was to take her to my vet where she subsequently died despite the best efforts to save her.  My vets are excellent and do not overcharge; however we needed to make payment arrangements to pay off her bill.  It would have been fantastic if there was a "discount" clinic nearby to offer services in cases like this.  Sometimes unusual circumstances warrant unusual assistance.

Carol October 2nd, 2009 03:26:03 PM

I don't live in the area of this shelter, which I assume is a County Animal Control facility if tax dollars are involved.  But it strikes me that you may be jumping to some conclusions.  Counties all over the state are cutting budgets, including animal services.  Shelters (both government and charitable nonprofit) are being forced to find ways to create revenue to run their programs.  Many are implementing fee-for-service strategies to raise needed dollars.

Are you certain that this program will usurp tax dollars?  Or is it possible that it will actually make a profit for the shelter, thereby raising money to run the shelter and Saving taxpayer dollars?   I think I would need to know more about the financial details before making judgment.

Mary October 2nd, 2009 06:28:20 PM

I wonder if they think it would be too much of a hassle to screen clients to determine financial need?  But it shouldn't be... a Medicaid card, or - well here in Texas if you are on food stamps you have what is called a Lone Star card, I'm assuming other states have similar things - or heck, even a Medicare card.  I know many seniors are not strapped financially, but so many are that I wouldn't have a problem with that.  It really shouldn't be that difficult to separate the needy from the greedy :-)

Barb October 2nd, 2009 07:46:21 PM

"After all, I know how many of my own small cache of deadbeat clients CAN pay and often refuse to. We all know that some people are happy to avail themselves of taxpayer dollars even when they know they don’t deserve them."

...but if you're evoking deadbeat clients...and if they're not going to pay you for the work you do *anyway*...perhaps it's not "cannibalization" of the vets to lure those clients away from you.  If people who won't pay you a fair fee aren't taking up your time (and that of your staff, not to mention the supplies and meds), perhaps you can actually do work for people who will pay you.

Galadriel October 2nd, 2009 09:10:30 PM

Patty, I think they're taking business/clients from you much less than you think, while providing services for a lot of people who couldn't afford it otherwise. Think of it this way: if a pet owner can /afford/ dental care through their regular vet--the one that the owner has selected and who knows the pet's history--why would they go elsewhere? The ones who are getting dental care through the county are primarily (excluding the small number who don't actually give a crap about their pets, though it's unlikely they'd even think about pet dental care) the ones who could not afford dental care otherwise.

As far as I'm concerned, my tax dollars are already being used to support dental/medical care for the children of poor people who decided to have kids despite their financial situation ... why should pets be any different?

Sarah October 2nd, 2009 10:54:54 PM

Sarah and Galadriel: I agree. I don't need or want those clients anyway. But I know they're out there and they enrage me at times when they demand private care at public prices. 

Mary: You may well be right. If they're not using tax dollars why should I care? The FVMA has seemed to have made a determination on that front and the facility IS tax subsidized and the services will be as well. Will the dentistry be for-profit? Perhaps you're right. Some services may cover the costs of others. 

Carol: Sometimes it's extremely difficult to determine who's a stray and who's not. That's why having a GREAT relationship with your vet makes all the difference. For well-known, excellent clients who bring in strays on occasion we will bend over backwards to cut our prices. I happen to know that plenty of hospitals do this. Even during my emergency shift a couple of weekends ago I cut down the price on a stray cat a nice couple had hit with their car (it was an obvious stray, after all). We know it's a bank account breaker and most of us do try to help out. Like everyone else, we just don't like to feel taken advantage of. And it's not uncommon for some clients to try and pass of their owned cats as strays. 

Dr. Patty Khuly October 3rd, 2009 10:27:32 AM

EAB, so if I follow your logic, if my child is sick, I go to the doctor, can't afford the service, the doctor mandates that the service be performed and when I don't pay, the doctor keeps the child? How about we just learn to mind our own business, take care of our own pets and leave other people to take care of theirs.

Only a wackadoo liberal puts pets on a par with children. So if you're driving down the road, there's a child on the right and a dog on the left and not enough room between then which way do you steer?

Ian October 3rd, 2009 11:49:33 AM

Ian, what brought you to this site, anyway?  You have such an obvious axe to grind and the way you dive right into a name-calling, righteous attitude is not necessary to reasonable discourse.  I don't want to have any discourse with you, and won't be polite to you about it, and yes, I'll call you out thinking you add anything of value to the site.   

You're not able to contribute much to rational discourse, as your 'question' is stupid.  You assume that there's only one answer to it - as only a self-righteous wingnut would.  That type would hit the dog, and would probably not stop even to help the child.  A liberal stops to help both.  The difference is glaringly obvious because of all the red from the bleeding heart. 

KateH October 3rd, 2009 01:16:04 PM

I'm happy that our county offers discounted spays and low cost rabies clinics for folks that want to do the best for their pets, but can't afford the cost of a private vet.  I've had friends and relatives take advantage of these offers when times were tight - everyone wins - the pets get their shots and groceries can still be purchased.

However, if you can afford to go to a private vet - you go.  Don't take up a space in line with the folks that really *need* that discounted shot.

I just adopted two ridiculously adorable kittens this week from our animal shelter.  I'll admit, I feel a little guilty over the great deal I got on these two crazy little furballs.  The shelter fee was - wait for it - $30.  This included 2 months of these little gals being bottle-fed and fostered.  1 night of boarding alone around here is $25.  8 weeks of care, socialization, food and comfort to get them ready to go home would be in excess of 2 grand alone.  This also included a feline distemper shot, ($23) a deworming session ($5.5) and a health exam. ($65)

I paid $60 for over $230 of services and got two insanely sweet, socialized kittens.

The spay for each was $100.  The regular cost at the vet the shelter contracts with is $254.

I'll be making some extra donations back to the animal shelter over the next year - these two sweeties are already worth WAY more than the $480 I saved. (And could afford.)

I can't imagine taking advantage of county-subsidized services when I could afford to go elsewhere.  We only have so many dollars in the budget for animal services to begin with, and I'm sure that cash donations to the Friends of the Animal Shelter have been down with the economic disaster of late.  I don't think it's right to take the services that someone else needs if I can afford it on my own.

Cindy October 3rd, 2009 04:07:33 PM

a veterinary consultant named sean mcvey once said something that sticks in my mind: "don't confuse financial hardship with financial inconvenience."  the clients who make the biggest fuss about their bills always seem to pull up in the nicest cars!

@cindy: yes, there seems to be a nice system in place that gets basic care covered: spays, neuters, rabies vaccines, and i guess dentals in FL ...but what about the cases that go far and beyond "basic?"  i can't think of any program that will subsidize a $5000 stay in the ICU for hepatic lipidosis or $3000 for a cruciate surgery or $2000 for a spinal MRI.  sure, there's care credit and other payment plans out there, but many people simply don't have the money.  how do they take care of their pets?  i don't know the answer either, but i think these costs need to be considered when making the decision to own a pet in the first place.  as far as strays, i am currently directing a program on long island that subsidizes urgent care for unowned animals (FAITH).  it's helped a lot of strays who eventually find good homes.

@EAB: here's where your plan is flawed: my clients' pets are not an asset to me. they're a liability.  it costs me money to keep them in my hospital any longer than i need to.  if you don't pay your mechanic, he puts a lien on your car.  what am i supposed to do with your Fluffy besides feed it and hope you like her enough to come back and pay the bill?

@ian: i think people are about to swerve to hit you ;)

Dennis Leon, DVM October 3rd, 2009 10:37:03 PM

Dr. Leon - that was lovely! Thanks for the laugh.

KateH October 3rd, 2009 11:05:10 PM

"i think these costs need to be considered when making the decision to own a pet in the first place."

I can't afford huge amounts for modern pet care but I can't afford them for myself either. Should we have let the shelter put down the two kittens we adopted instead because of worst case considerations?   Right now, they've had an extra year and a half of a very nice life and we've enjoyed them both greatly.  I'm not at all sure life is worth living in fear of worst case scenarios.  In the end we're all dead.  Meanwhile, we play the hand we're dealt.

Will October 3rd, 2009 11:16:05 PM

Should we have let the shelter put down the two kittens we adopted instead because of worst case considerations?

No, you just need a contingency plan for when the fit hits the shan.  Veterinarians don't particularly like euthanizing pets who have treatable conditions.

Dennis Leon, DVM October 4th, 2009 09:33:12 AM

"No, you just need a contingency plan for when the fit hits the shan. Veterinarians don't particularly like euthanizing pets who have treatable conditions."

Dennis: However, I'd prefer to euthanize over what happens when people are unwilling to acknowledge that the pelvic fracture "really can't hurt so much since he's not howling" or the GI foreign body they "can't afford" to treat so they'd rather "take her home to die in peace." 

Dr. Patty Khuly October 4th, 2009 05:39:10 PM

Please, all, understand that my idea was in my dreamworld and was not meant to be considered realistically applicable in the least.  That's why I prefaced it a bit.  There is no magic bullet.

I would like to elaborate on Ian's question to me though.  He asked which one I would hit, the dog or the human.  Too vague of a question to answer, but I will tell you this.  My wife even did a doubletake when we were discussing this type of question years ago.  I made it clear that if I had to choose between my own wife or one of our pets, it would be very difficult to choose and I hope I never have to make such a decision.  I have stated before that our shelter rescue Tina has done more to brighten people's lives than the majority of humans, and that's something I would have to take into consideration.

As far as the name calling that Ian presented, it's typical of the polarizing discussions with politics these days.  What blows my mind that these days folks believe that there is only two answers, liberal or conservitive; dem or rep; pro life or pro choice; and the list goes on.  Sure doens't foster the thought process when you just pick an existing horse and ride it down someone elses throat, eh?  I always figured if I found someone that disagreed with me I would foster the discussion in the hopes that I might learn something.  Name calling, well, it's something I outgrew about the time I entered the third grade.

EAB October 5th, 2009 10:33:30 AM

EAB - you point out something that's not 'kosher' to say - "our shelter rescue Tina has done more to brighten people's lives than the majority of humans, and that's something I would have to take into consideration" in terms of thetype of questions that are generally not realistic ones - those "If I had to choose" questions that really don't have just one answer under 99.99% of circumstances. Ian asked if there was "not enough room between then which way do you steer?" which has the obvious other choice of stopping so that you don't hit the kid or the dog, which is why I said it was a stupid question.

However, I once had a firefighter (a wonderful man, btw, who has saved people and pets from burning houses) tell me that it's a good thing that he never knows anything about the people he saves, because he was sure there would be instances where he might have been wrong to save a person over a pet.  He mentioned a case where he found out afterwards that a man in the house (who got out on his own) was a pedophile, and there was a cat that one of the children loved that died (the firefighter brought out the limp body.  He said that if it had been in his power to save the cat over the man, and he'd known what horrible things the man had done, he just might have gotten the cat out first and then gone back in for the man, to make him suffer a bit longer.  He didn't say he wouldn't have tried to save the man, just that he would have been second on his list.

Many people would have an automatic reaction of "You can't DO that - people come first" but honestly, if YOU knew that Osama ben Laden and some kid's pet where inside a burning building, would you REALLY save Osama FIRST?  I know I wouldn't - even if the kid's pet was a tarantula, or a tank of pirahnas.  I would get them out first.  And then I'd really have to weigh whether I'd go back in - and I wouldn't. 

KateH October 5th, 2009 11:41:04 AM

If we based it on pure percentage, I am thinking that I like animals better than people.  For example, I have only met a handful of dogs and cats I can't stand, but people?  Oye vey!!

<GRIN>

EAB October 5th, 2009 12:10:58 PM

I don't have any emotional attachment to "humanity" or "animals" as abstracts.  I'd pick any pet I knew and liked over any number of anonymous humans.  Conversly, even hyper-cute kittens had better not ask me to make a Sophie's Choice between them and either of my kids or wife.

Will October 5th, 2009 10:10:35 PM

Why isn't anyone saying that if you can't afford a pet you shouldn't have one?  I really hate how pets seem to be mandatory for some people regardless of their ability to care for them.  They then blame everyone else but themselves when something pops up.

I am one of the first to admit that there are times when people who do care and do take responsiblty who run into hard times and for that situation I fully support subsidized care, but it is the people who take in a free kitten or a stray dog who then expect that they shouldn't have to sink a dime into it, but that everything should be taken care of just irritates the living daylights out of me.

Connie October 6th, 2009 11:19:07 AM

Connie,

I"m impressed that your life is so totally under control that you know exactly what you'll be able to afford at all times as the future unfolds.  On the other hand, us ordinary humans sometimes run into health problems, the economy sometimes tanks, management runs companies into the ground, and so on, and what might be affordable one year can become prohibitive the next.

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