Vet School 101 Are canned and kibbled created equal? (The feline dry vs. wet diet debate)

October 12th, 2009  

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I've always fed dry food free choice and some canned food for "dinner." Our cats have typically lived to 18, 19, 20 years old. About a year ago, at about 14 years old, one of our two cats was diagnosed with diabetes. She's doing well on glipizide and what my vet calls the Catkins diet - high protein, no carbs. I'm feeding Purina Pro-Plan Kitten Food, which has no carbs. She's always been a glutton. Her brother is a casual eater. I decided since there's no way to keep her from eating his food if kibble is available free-choice, that they'd get distinct meals. After all, wild cats do not find a food bowl filled with mice, 24/7. So they get breakfast, lunch, dinner, and bedtime feedings. I read the labels on his canned food, and make sure I buy only flavors that start with "real" meat, not by-products. He gets 1/4 of a larger can at each feeding. Sometime he'll walk away before his bowl is completely empty. If he polishes it off, I give some dry food, a skimpy tablespoon or less using the measure in the jar of kibble. It's not as much of a nuisance as I thought. The larger issue is making sure that she doesn't cross the room to snarf up his leftovers. She's lost weight, is down to a good 9.6 pounds, is much more active. In fact, when I finish the last of the Glipizide in a month, we're going to try her on diet only, to see if giving her pancreas a rest has stabilized her system. Judy

Judy October 12th, 2009 10:24:35 AM

In today's thinking, I was a bad cat owner. My first cat lived on "Tender Vittles" for 19 1/2 years & went to the vet only twice in her life.

My last 2 lived on Science Diet Maintenance dry kibble & Fancy Feast towards the end years. They never were regular visitors at the vets, never were given the 'new' feline leukemia vaccine, nor tested. They lived to 15 1/2, 18 1/2 yrs.

pocket&blondie

1995 Pocket & Blondie

Barbara A./NH October 12th, 2009 10:34:59 AM

Growing up, our two cats ate Purina cat chow, supplemented by some Figaro tuna, dried fish and shrimp, the fish guts my dad would toss them when he cleaned his fish and whatever they caught in the yard.  Both lived to about 16 years old.

Now 30 years later, Mr. Kitty (adopted as an adult) ate dry food until diagnosed with diabetes early this year.  He may be between 10 and 13.  He now eats Fancy Feast, supplemented with a raw chicken wing and bits of fresh fish if we're having it, plus two units of insulin twice a day. I've thought about a raw diet, but it's not cost effective at this time.  My sister's cat has urinary tract problems and is on a special diet, with very little dry food.  I wonder if yesterday's cats were that much healthier, or if we just now have the medicine to help cats that would have died earlier.

I read Elizabeth Hodgkins, DVM's book "Your Cat" before Mr. Kitty was diagnosed, and was struck by her assertion that one of the best things you can do for your cat is get him off dry food.

Barbara, I'm struck by the fact that your kitties didn't visit the vet regularly.  You take such good care of your dogs.  If you were to get a cat now,  would give him/her the same vet care you give your dogs?

lin October 12th, 2009 11:08:33 AM

The lack of studies thing tends to be a self fulfilling prophecy.  As a person who has worked with diabetic cats (one of my own and 2 fosters) I have seen firsthand what kibble does to bloodsugar.  Cats have been thrown out of diabetic remission from a kitty-crack break in episode. 

I am a bit of an evangelist on this topic; I think dry food is practically kitty abuse, at least as the primary dietary component. 

http://www.catinfo.org would best synopsize what i have come to believe.

BTW, if you think dry food cleans teeth, pop a few kibble in your mouth and chew, swallow, then run your tongue over your teeth. Feel the residue?  The sticky wet ground grainy stuff stuck to your teeth?  Then go brush your teeth, and bit into a chicken breast, chew, swallow, run your tongue over your teeth.

Which left more residue on your teeth?

Stefani October 12th, 2009 11:23:08 AM

Disclaimer:  I am not suggesting that you feed your cats a diet of chicken breasts.  It needs to be balanced. 

Stefani October 12th, 2009 11:24:30 AM

What about the increased incidence of Feline Hyperthyroidism supposedly linked to the linings of wet-food cans?

Also, there are high protein kibbles out there that use complex carbs instead of simple sugars (and no grains), and I think for those of us who cannot fathomly dole out little canned portions of food all day long (and whose cats can free feed themselves appropriately), these are acceptable alternatives.

anedote October 12th, 2009 12:10:25 PM

I get no choice in the matter. My cat refuses canned food. I once gave her one of those meat chunks in gravy type foods. She licked some of the gravy off the chunks and then wandered off to let it dry out and get nasty.

Terrie October 12th, 2009 12:22:16 PM

In 2007 after reading all the info on the internet about the evils of dry food, I decided to try canned food because it seemed to make sense. 

I did discover that canned food is much better for weight loss.  Bo ate 235 calories a day of dry food and weighed 18.5 lbs, and was slowly gaining.  He now eats 238 and weighs about 17.  At one time had him down to 16 lb 3 oz which would be ideal for him, but need to try re-introducing a lower calorie canned food to get there.  Wilson also ate 235 calories, and now eats about 280 calories on wet food and a small portion of dry food (seems to help with his stools) and weighs about a lb less.  He's another big kitty just above 15 lbs.  I recently had to increase his dry food because one of his canned foods isn't available, and despite the calories being equal, he gained about 10 oz!! So, I had to reduce some.

Cougar did not do well on canned foods at all, and the only conclusion I can draw after 4 months of trying is that with his IBD and pancreatitis he just can't tolerate them. It required a then higher dose of pred and an appetite stimulant just to get him through the 4 months.  And he never ate enough canned food to maintain his weight.

One thing that does make me wonder....All cats at the same dry food for years.  Cougar and Bo for about 7 years, Wilson for about 5.  Cougar developed IBD while eating the dry food, Bo's first sign of IBD was our first attempt at changing that dry food to a different one.  And Wilson, although he doesn't have IBD, has a very delicate digestive system and I have to be very careful with any food changes.  For Bo & Wilson, if starting a new date batch of food I blend old and new over a few days to avoid stomach upset. 

Jenny October 12th, 2009 12:41:58 PM

I'm slowly trying to figure out a mixture of canned/dry that works best for me and my two cats (one is just about right for her large frame, the other is securely in "pudgy" territory).  They vastly prefer canned food but I just can't be home enough to get them enough of it in evenly spaced portions that don't dry out into concrete. Eventually I'd like to transition to a high-quality canned food (currently feeding Friskies and Fancy Feast) but the last time I tried introducing one of those it was days of upset stomach and diarreah for one kitty.  I'm finding a mix of the small (3 oz) and large cans (5ish oz) to be helpful.  If I know I'm going to be home for multiple small meals they each get 1/2 cans of the little ones.  Otherwise I'll split the bigger cans.

I'm having OK luck so far moving to a low-carb dry food in a puzzle feeder (SlimCat ball).  My bigger, less food-interested kitty ate 8 pieces the first time and threw up.  So now she whacks it enough to get 2 or 3 pieces at a time.  We'll see how it goes.  Pudgy, perpetually "starving" kitty wants the bathtub filled with canned food at all times but seems to be slowly getting the idea of the food ball.

On a slightly related note, a handful of entries back you mentioned Iams probiotics and eye "gunk".  My sis has a snow white Turkish Angora who had a gunk problem (not reddish, just gunky).  It has cleared on the new Iams probiotic dry food she feeds her two cats.

AnneT October 12th, 2009 01:16:19 PM

I had the late, great Target and Snoopy on dry food for years, with wet as a treat.  They both also turned into little porkers, and trying to restrict the amounts just resulted in loud, angry, hungry cats.

My vet recommended switching over to wet, with the carbs of the dry food being the suspected culprit.  So, they went on kitty Atkins, and I was a hero at breakfast and dinner, and within a year they were down to excellent weights. 

Lily & Carmen, the wonder kittens, are currently getting wet throughout the day, and a bit of dry left out for them overnight - I'll fully admit that the dry is as much a mechanism for my being able to sleep a little longer in the morning as anything, but so far they are thriving and enjoying both.

Cindy October 12th, 2009 02:20:11 PM

Anecdote: You mentioned two of the three issues I wanted to address in this post but felt it would introduce too much confusion. Terrie brought up the third one: Yes, some cats refuse canned food. And pouched food is worse than useless when cats simply lick up the gravy and leave the rest. 

As to the wet issue and hyperthyroidism: There is a correlation. We're not yet sure about causation. Is it all wet foods? Is it an inert ingredient (we suspect)? 

As I mentioned to someone yesterday: If the risk is still very low (and it is), I think I'd rather risk inducing a highly treatable disease like hyperthyroidism than risk inducing the others I mentioned above. 

On the quality issue: I happen to be of the mind that a high protein, high-quality kibble beats the average supermarket canned food. Making sure cats get lots of running water is my solution to the moisture dilemma in these cases.  

Dr. Patty Khuly October 12th, 2009 02:36:57 PM

I read the pro dry food study you linked, and was surprised by the number of qualifiers in the article. this may, this might... etc there were almost no definitive statements in the thing, except cats are obligate carnivores.

 

Like Stef, I have cared for my own diabetic cat for seven years who needed 7 units of insulin while on dry food, and 1 when on a low carb canned. I had her eating raw for a while, and she did not need insulin at all. I also took in three diabetic cats for the local shelter, and I got all three off insulin feeding them a low carb canned diet.

 

The question of why today's food seems to be an issue, I would ask that someone research the ingredients in yesterday's cat foods. Are there more carbs - not to mention fruits and veggies which are put in cat food I believe mainly to market to the humans buying it since we all know fruits & vegsare healthy. I do not know if there were fewer carbs in the original dry food recipes, but I could easily see pet food companies saying 'well heck, if cats aren't dying at 5% carbs, lets try more!' (not saying that conversation ever took place, just saying it wouldn't shock me if it did)

 

I also have two cats that blocked from urinary crystals while being fed a high quality "premium" dry food. Reducing their carb intake and increasing their water consumption due to eating a more species appropriate diet has kept them from having further issues.

 

I will be the first to admit that there are a lot of cats who do just fine eating dry food. But George Burns drank and smoked and lived to 100, that doesn't mean that we all should do that to live the healthiest lives possible.

 

My wish is that vets who do not study pet nutrition would stop relying on the information provided by the pet food companies that supply them pet food to sell. Whey they say "yes, this food is good food" they are making a statement that people take to be gospel. There are a lot of people out there who once they learn the truth about these foods, are shocked at what was passed off as "good" foods. I wish they would take the tack that my own personal doctor took with me when I had questions of nutrition beyond should I eat vegetables... she sent me to a nutritionist. (and preferably one willing to make difinitive statements, with out so many qualifiers)

 

Connie October 12th, 2009 02:40:26 PM

I have tried, unsuccessfully, for three years to get my five cats on a wet food diet, since my eldest was affected by toxic Nutro. She has had feeding tubes three different times, so when she goes off her food, she gets what she will eat. I hate knowing what's in the kibble, but it seems to agree with them and they will eat it, and, as I've been reminded frequently, the best food is only the best IF the cat will eat it.

If I ever have kittens or a young cat again, wet food will definitely be my first choice. But with five seniors who won't switch, I just want to keep them eating!

dottie October 12th, 2009 03:45:36 PM

lin: My goodness, thankyou for the compliment!

In those days, people & vets weren't as crazed over yearly vaccines for cats! When the leukemia vaccine came out, mine were already several years old, so the mode of thinking was that they: may already have it, may already been exposed, or are healthy & will remain so.

Science diet was the "new" quality food back then, and they also caught their share of live 'game' (yuk).

They got sick in their last couple of years & required antibiotics & such...but were the healthiest things going!

I would be horrified to feed my pets SD now...and would probably buy Evo canned & Wellness kibble.

My cat "Bitttles" lived on Tender Vittles--how awful is that? But lived a darn good healthy (indoor- by choice) life!

I have avoided becoming a feline owner, much as I have the hankering to. Mainly because I couldn't rationalize the loose in/outdoor life again--I was just plain l-u-c-k-y, no excuses!

Barb A./NH October 12th, 2009 04:23:13 PM

That's Bittles w/2 t's--I should mention that as far as treatments go, my very first rescue Scot to be rehomed (named Punky fr. RI) was a ferocious cat-killer and sucker-bit Blondie in the chest.

That required an abscess drain visit at the vets & host of pills & wound cleaner! Other than that--no wildlife tangles.

Barb A./NH October 12th, 2009 04:40:33 PM

Yes, Anedote, I do fret over the hyper T link.  I paid for a consultation with Dr. Pierson, whose site URL I provided in my prior post, to come up with a diet that I could home-make.  This now constitutes about 50% of my cats diet and has for quite some time.  Even so, every time I open a pop top can (albeit, high quality, usu Natures variety) I worry.  I may get a recipe off balanceit just to give them some variety.

I am worried about hyperT but I don't think it's a "wash" between the options.

It is true that there are grain free dry foods now, with lower carb content -- but they still seem to have the effect of causing a huge BG spike based on the experiences of many members of the feline diabetes board who home test.

Having said that:

I learned all this the hard way.

My Toonces got diabetes while on a diet of primarily Science Diet food -- that "Nature's Best" and also the sensitive stomach.  I thought I was purchasing the ** best ** for my cats with all those misleading pictures of healthy veggies and grain and all those overblown claims.  

Now, dry food is better than starving (I know some rescues can't afford anything else, and some cats plain old won't eat wet) but I'd keep trying. 

 

 

 

Stefani October 12th, 2009 06:46:30 PM

I am SO glad you are discussing this. It is really hard to get cats to lose weight. I have been trying for years to get my 8 year old male to lose weight by measuting dry food. The ONLY thing that helped was to transition him to wet food. Took weeks, starting with a teaspoon at each meal the first week, slowly increased to 2 oz at each meal 3 times a day, and 1 tablespoon dry thrown a kibble at a time in an attempt to get him to exercise. Of course, my normal weight cat won't touch wet food!

Sami October 12th, 2009 08:27:20 PM

And then there was this in today's New York Times on-line: Q. Why are there no calorie counts on pet food labels? How many calories should a 10-pound cat eat? A. “There are no calorie counts on pet food since many pet foods have not been tested for digestibility and true content per cup or can,” said Joseph Wakshlag, assistant professor of clinical nutrition at the Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine, who holds both veterinary and Ph.D. degrees. Calculations of caloric values are done indirectly, mostly based on a set of assumptions called the modified Atwater’s equation, named for Wilbur Olin Atwater (1844-1907), a chemist who studied human nutrition and metabolism. The results of these calculations “can have a pretty large margin of error,” Dr. Wakshlag said. For example, the fat content of a can of food can be given as 5 percent of the total but might actually be 7 percent, a relatively big difference in terms of available energy. The average cat needs somewhere between 200 and 400 calories a day, depending on metabolism and activity, Dr. Wakshlag said. But a particular cat’s actual needs are better assessed by seeing if it maintains a normal weight for its bone structure. If the cat is too thin (easily felt ribs with no fat covering) or too fat (rounded abdomen, no visible “waistline”) , the amount of food can be gradually adjusted. Unexplained weight changes call for a visit to the vet. C. CLAIBORNE RAY

Judy October 13th, 2009 08:47:01 AM

Judy: Despite the calorie count argument Dr. Wakshlag makes (and it's a very good one), the same can be said of human variability and calorie utilization. In other words, it's still no excuse for keeping calorie counts off a bag of food or a tin of treats.

If humans knew more or less how many calories they were offering their pets they'd have one additional tool to help them keep weight off their pets. 

Dr. Patty Khuly October 13th, 2009 08:59:05 AM

I agree with your position regarding dry food, however, my feline companion goes against it. This one is unusual, as no human food attracts him (only a little bit of yoghurt, occasionally) nor does he accepts wet food. This kitty takes only kibble (royal canine neutered) and nothing else. What would you do in this case? Go against the animal's preference and force feed it fresh or wet food? I tried combining wet food occasionally, but he just doesn't eat it, and when he does, puddles of regurgitated food are often (but only then), but for the time being, he'll just go on with the kibble.

CrazyVet October 13th, 2009 09:39:16 AM

CrazyVet: I certainly feel for your position. Sometimes cats don't give you much of a choice in the matter. Starting off with a wet food during kittenhood is the best approach, but for you it's usually too late to safely switch.

Have you tried meats? Cooked or raw? I find that organ meats are a great supplement and some kibble-fed cats will eventually fall for them. 

Dr. Patty Khuly October 13th, 2009 10:01:31 AM

I've switched my cats from a vitually 100% dry diet to a 90% wet diet.

Here's what happened:  Overweight kitty has lost 1.5 lbs (was up to 16.2 pounds) in 6 months.  Somewhat overweight cat lost .8 lbs in the same time period.

Also, kitty with urinary track infections has not had one since we switched.  (She rarely drank water when on dry, almost never drinks now - I sneak extra water in her food sometimes).

Cats are happy with wet but will only eat certain ones.  Giant cat eats almost anything, but not so giant cat eats all fish flavored Weruva but insists on pate type chicken (Wellness, Natural Balance, or Merrick (which isn't pate, so go figure)).

They get a tiny bit of Innova EVO which is a great dry food but seems to pack the weight on.

 

 

 

 

2CatMom October 13th, 2009 12:11:48 PM

I used to feed mostly dry food to my kitties, with only a bit of wet each morning for a treat.

However since my cat Jack was diagnosed with Megacolon we switched him to Hills WD at about a 60-65% wet diet for the added water.  I'd feed him a higher percentage of wet but he really prefers the dry instead, so I compromise.

The remaining 6 cats have all had problems with urinary crystals, high Ph balances, and UTI infections.  They've all been switched to Hills CD.  4 of them eat the CD dry only as they either won't eat wet at all or in the case of 1 kitty he vomits if he gets wet food of any kind.  The other 2 eat about 80% wet CD and the remaining dry. 

Yes feeding the dry was easier to measure out, easier to feed (no free feeding here, just scheduled meals), and a bit cheaper.  However since the cats are doing good I'm not changing a thing.

cl October 13th, 2009 08:21:17 PM

Cats that won't switch.  I had one of these when I was young and, when mom switched food (from canned to dry kibble after one cat got food poisoning from canned), he just refused to eat.  It was killing me but mom said he was acting like a human kid and he'd eat when he got hungry enough; sure enough, he did.  He lived past 20 so don't think that tough love hurt him any.  And in that early food poisoning incident lies my inherent reluctance to switch from dry kibble to wet foods.  However, dry kibble has changed a LOT since then with far more carbs and less moisture (probably to increase shelf life) and, despite recent canned food problems, canned food is much safer than it used to be.  I sometimes use a "prefab" ground, canned organic chicken or turkey in my dogs' food now and now up to 2 cats who beg for some of it when I pop cans.  Pretty much it's "blender bird" so I've been letting them have it when they ask; suspect I'll move more in that direction with time and getting more settled and organized at my new place.

"best feline feeding options still look one heck of a lot more like a bird in a blender"  And you haven't gotten any flack from the biggie humane folks about that comment?  Thanks for saying it in black and white :)

PJBoosinger October 13th, 2009 10:00:33 PM

This feline is utterly unusual - even as a kitten he refused wet food (I first tried wet food when I took it), and never showed any interest whatsoever in human foods (except mandarine fillets). As an adult he never showed any interest in meats - fresh or cooked - nor in any kind of fish. This is the strangest cat I ever encountered when it comes to food.

For now I'm OK with his preferences; it's actually much easier to have a cat that isn't interested in the food on my plate. I'm more worried about the far future, as renal diseases are very common in cats, and then the water intake is a very important part of control. That's why I tried a few times to give different types of wet food, to get him used to it, with very little success or none at all.

CrazyVet October 17th, 2009 05:13:44 AM

I have yet to get my new kitten, in about 5 more weeks. Am just not sure the idea of wet food is something I should start. I have had cats my entire life and it seems once they are feed canned food they want it ALL the time. Is their a way to give them canned food just once in awhile?

renoowner October 19th, 2009 11:25:12 AM

reenowner, you will lose the benefits of feeding wet food if you feed it only occasionally.  The extra hydration is needed daily, not once in a while.  The lower carb content is appropriate daily, not once in a while.

If it's cost you are concerned about, there are many inexpensive options in canned cat food. 

 

Stefani October 21st, 2009 07:16:57 PM

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