So sorry about the comments lost (about 20!!). Please repost them if you can since I didn't get a chance to read them all.

Believe it or not, spammers brought down the site and we had to back up from last night's saved stuff (which did not include today's post).

Sorry!!

Dr. Patty Khuly October 29th, 2009 12:08:37 PM

I'm bummed because I'd have loved to see those comments.

I own one of those "partially trained" dogs. And I work at home, I've tried the leashing him to me thing, taking him out every hour, crate training (he's crate phobic, actually). We'd do these things for a few weeks, it would seem that he had "got it," I'd give him a little freedom and...happy birthday to me.

My trainer assured me I was doing something wrong. Then she boarded my dog (a Frenchie) for several days. When I returned, her eyes were big, "That dog s***s more than any dog I've ever seen! We'd take him out, he'd ask to go out, and he'd STILL s*** in the house!

Most of the time, he's good, but when he starts chasing around the house with my Boston, it's almost certain that he'll make a pit stop somewhere. He goes out five times a day. Five.

He is a partially trained dog.

Susan October 29th, 2009 12:21:51 PM

I've encountered this sort of thing (i.e. a dog who doesn't care if he lies in his own waste) with puppy mill raised animals or any other dogs who were confined to their crates way too much and too long.  They can learn that pee and poop are normal to sleep in.

And it can be really tough to teach them otherwise.  I think you are on the right track with the hourly walks during the day.  Personally I would give the raw diet another try - the bad smell may have been some sort of detox because normally even cat poop doesn't smell too bad on a raw diet, and there certainly isn't as much of it.  That should be temporary.

If he were my dog, I would put him on an admittedly unbalanced diet for a few days of just raw meat to get his system settled down.  Then I would start adding raw meaty bones, then when he's handling those OK very small amounts of raw liver and just gradually start adding other things he needs.  Eating a meat-only diet for a few days won't do him any harm, but I have had great success with this when dealing with a dog with intestinal issues.

Barb October 29th, 2009 01:49:20 PM

Oh, and I have to ask:  how do the spammers get around the captcha (if that's the right word) thingy?  I'm sorry they did, your web site rocks!

Barb October 29th, 2009 01:54:15 PM

Barb: I feed raw a couple of times a week, normally, but I still commercial feed in the mornings and offer miscellaneous meaty stews in the evenings (fricassé of beef heart, anyone?). But Slumdog needs more rigor than that for now. Last Monday I offered him a raw chicken back and all hell broke loose on Tuesday.

Oh, and btw, he pooped in his cage today. The cat-sized one. 10 minutes after I walked him. WTF!?

Dr. Patty Khuly October 29th, 2009 02:24:23 PM

PS: I'd really love to re-read that comment (H. Houlahan?) on backwards training. And the ex-pen comment, too. Pls re-post if it's not too much trouble!

Dr. Patty Khuly October 29th, 2009 02:25:38 PM

And yes, Daniela. My PR person contacted me about your request. You may use this post. Thanks for your interest.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 29th, 2009 02:27:30 PM

The smaller the dog, the bigger pain in the ***.... now why is that? i've had medium to large dogs all my life with nary a problem. Always easily trained. Never make mistakes, even 12 hour days... i succumbed to the cute little toy fox i have here, she too is a partially trained gal. ;0) but here is where we haven't had a mess in weeks. She follows the cats out the window. I have it set up now where the cat induced hole in the screen is where they come and go. and i noticed when i had put the sofa there Prissy my TFT can exit any time she wants. and she does. And she "goes" out there. She just can't follow them back in. I've noticed less in the house issues. weeks actually of not one mistake. Is she fixed? probably not huh?

jojo October 29th, 2009 02:50:20 PM

Dr K: I agree with Barb, it sounds like his intestinal tract is irregular. But I am assuming this has been from day 1, and unconnected or worsened from the surgery.

Crate training is out! Confining to a small area perhaps? With a newspaper-lined plastic tray sized for washer/dryers? Someone is going to behead me for that suggestion.

Temporary installed dog door plus x-pen open to it?

For sure it takes patience & a good 6 mos. on an older, never trained dog, but it can be done! Just need to find the method to insure repeated success & praise.

(ok, now I know why his name hasn't been changed )

Barbara A./NH October 29th, 2009 04:31:55 PM

Wow,no partially huh?Darn!

We have a four y/o Rottie that had never been in a house before we fostered him(and flunked).He was not neutered and tried to mark furniture the first week..after the 48 hours he hid in the bathroom because he was so scared.

He goes out at least three times a day in the backyard to run with the other two dogs and gets two walks a day,but we still find poop or pee a time or two a week even if he has only been in the kitchen for two hours.He never goes if we are home and he can hold it 9 or 10 hours overnight.When we leave him he has plenty of toys and his three year old "dog brother"with him.We have had him a year and a half and this is the only thing he hasn't "gotten"He was aggressive towards people and now he loves them,but it would be nice if our floor stayed dry.Any suggestions?

Susan H October 29th, 2009 05:33:40 PM

I've been so lucky with Agadore and Beaner...Agadore was houetrained in 3 days and has never in his 6 years had an accident....he's thrown up a few times, but nada from the other end.  Beaner,too...took him in at about 7 months-he'd only been on a chain with no interaction or socialization...he had a few pees in the house, but that was it.  I work 10 hour shifts and they make it thru them....

Possum, the newest addition, a 2 month old pup, is doing great...she has had two accudents in two weeks and both were right at the back door....she went there and I just didn't notice.

My sister has bells hanging by her door and her pup hits it with his paw....

Good luck with Slummy----

agadoresmama October 29th, 2009 05:39:08 PM

I feel your pain. At one point I fostered a friend's dog to try to housetrain him. The friend had gotten the dog from... well, people who were more concerned with getting $20.00 dollars quickly than with taking care of a dog.

That poor dog was just a big, lovable hunk of stupid. Nothing I did had the slightest effect on him. Fortunately, we managed to find him a home with people out in the country, last I heard he was doing quite well as a barn dog. 

JenL October 29th, 2009 05:53:17 PM

What about an acute course of opiates, to slow down the bowels? Obviously this would be off-label use. If you could give him something to reduce the # of bowel movements this might help with the training.

Margaret October 29th, 2009 06:28:19 PM

First,  I would have followed the "off-the-record" rule, lest you retaliate by posting pictures of me dancing on tables in Miami Beach.

Second, you have more time to work on the problem, since McKenzie has G-I problems of her own that have led to the trip being postponed.

Words cannot express how disappointed I am, and how much I was looking forward to the weekend. I am pretty sure McKenzie will be fine -- at least I'm sure praying she will be -- but I will remain worried about what's going on with her even after the acute situation resolves.

Crappy day. Hope tomorrow's better, and the trip is on again soon.

Gina Spadafori October 29th, 2009 06:53:13 PM

I never had a housebreaking problem until the dachshunds. They are impossible....and they more I talk to doxie people, the more I understand it is a wide spread problem. Many doxie owners solved the problem with doggies doors, but not only would that not work cause of my cats, but my dogs have to be dragged out if it's cold, wet, dark, ....so they'd not use a door willingly.

LorriM October 29th, 2009 08:30:39 PM

Good grief the spam bots are on you today!

PJB October 29th, 2009 10:36:46 PM

The CAPTCHA system is making it too easy for the pattern recognition bots.  The ones I like are the simple arithmetic ones; they're easy to read and do for humans but the bots don't get them. Yet.

Will October 29th, 2009 11:18:03 PM

Don't worry, Gina. We have plenty of fun weekends ahead of us. McKenzie comes first.

I'm just sorry you missed the annual spectacle that is Lincoln Road on Halloween weekend. The dog costumes are out of this world (and the nudist body painters are kinda fun, too). 

Dr. Patty Khuly October 30th, 2009 06:41:21 AM

LorriM -- I believe it. My friends and breeders in the Frenchie community tell me that my monkey has lots of company in his breed when it comes to his frustrating refusal to save his pooping for the outdoors. After banging my head against this wall over and over and over again...I've just decided that a little poop now and then, deposited in a discreet place, is not the end of the world, and certainly not worth my getting migraines over. Life is just too short!

Susan October 30th, 2009 08:16:28 AM

I was on an email list where I mentioned how nice the rain was because my girls are all so cooperative about going out, getting the job done fast, and coming back in (and behaving; convinced the rain always reminds them of why they put up with a human) and another person on the list announced she was sending me a care package, a large number of dachshunds.  Reminded me how very fortunate I am!

PJB October 30th, 2009 08:52:31 AM

The rain is a nightmare at my house. Not only does my Frenchie object (he's not "fully" trained, either), but Slumdog's plastic bag (over the splint) means crazy antics designed to fool me into thinking he's ready to come back in (not by a long shot). 

And I'm not alone. Not to rat anyone out, but a couple of local colleagues (who run one of the finest hospitals in my city) own a pack of Maltese that are similarly "tile trained."

What is it with small dogs? It's certainly not that we don't train them the same way others do their larger brethren. There's something truly amiss with their brains. 

Having had two Frenchies, for example, I can attest to their stubbornness in this regard. Rain or no rain.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 30th, 2009 10:44:16 AM

Today in southern Illinois we are getting torrential downpours.  Took Possum out to potty- she took one look at the back yard underwater, and ran in the door before I could stop her.  I caught up to her in the living room, where she had just pee'd and poo'd in the comfort of a dry house.......sigh......I can't blame her.....

agadoresmama October 30th, 2009 01:05:42 PM

Sadly I just simply do the best I can and never put the carpet shampooer away....I was planning on ripping up the carpet until my daughter's chi jumped off the couch playing with the one of the doxie's and broke his leg... on carpet...and he's a puppy...it was a real WTF moment....

I wish that the doxies would at least stop using the piddle pads as really fun rip em up chew toys and at least use the pads...

I find myself thinking about trying that fake grass pad thing , but I am reluctant to spend anymore money on what despite the fact that I am home with the dogs all the time, appears to be a fruitless effort in housebreaking. It's annoying and embarassing and frustrating, as equally frustrating as one of my favorite cats that we fondly refer to as miss perfect poops...we know she does perfect poops because she leaves them for inspection right in front of the litterbox. In the last 14 years I have had her, every poop is perfectly formed and perfectlyd left for us, no matter what substrate is used, including none, no matter how big, small, covered, uncovered, flat round, square the litterbox is...

remind why we love animals so much?? <LOL>

LorriM October 30th, 2009 01:15:39 PM

Is it possible for a dog to have a brain malfunction when it comes to this stuff?  I'm sincerely curious because my mom's crazy-hyper dog isn't fully housetrained, and it's driving my mom nuts.  The dog has had many  health problems including epilepsy, and we've speculated that maybe something isn't clicking in her brain.  I'm just wondering if that's a possibility.

We found this pup wandering the streets two years ago and quickly discovered that she had a mutitude of infections, skin issues and was most likely abused before ending up roaming the neighborhood.  A year later she began having seizures and takes heavy doses of phenobarbital to manage the condition.  Her fur still hasn't fully come in (in spite of good diet & supplements), and she's just barely too cute to compete in the ugliest dog contest.  She's very loveable, though!

My mom has her on a schedule for going out, but the dog often would rather sniff for things in the yard, eat rocks, eat pinecones, bark at the neighbors' dogs, etc. than do what she's supposed to be doing.  Even when she does her sinful business in the yard it's not uncommon for her to come in the house, run into the front room and make another deposit.  And then she acts guilty afterwards.

So, is it possible that she just isn't capable of getting it?

Posey October 30th, 2009 01:26:06 PM

I was wondering why the site kept crashing IE yesterday! Let me repost -- I think I was the x-pen person you mentioned (I was 3rd or 4th to reply).

I suggested newspaper training Slumdog. I think you are trying to jump from Point A to point C with him right now. He needs point B (newspaper training), and in my (limited) experiences helping other people with adopted, not-housebroken dogs, this is actually common.

If I were you, I would have him in an x-pen, with his open crate inside the x-pen, and line the whole pen with newspapers. If he goes anywhere OTHER than his crate, you've made progress! Try to reward if you're in the room, etc. Once he's doing well at going everywhere BUT his crate, then take away a piece of newspaper near the door of the crate. After a day or so, take away another. Gradually "fade" the newspaper until there is one sheet in the pen with him. Get him reliably going on newspaper, then try to get the newspaper outside.

Also, I suggested getting a bag of those ridiculously expensive wee-wee pads because there is a chance his former owner had him going on those. They seemed to be all the rage with the "underinformed teeny designer dog" owners, at least at the pet stores I worked at.

Good luck! I really hope this helps :)

Cat @ It's A Spring Thing October 30th, 2009 02:08:49 PM

Cat: I bought an x-pen yesterday and I'll be trying your approach first. My sincerest thank-yous for reposting...even if it doesn't work. ;-)

Dr. Patty Khuly October 30th, 2009 04:53:18 PM

I hope it works out for you. When I worked at a boarding kennel/rescue, that was how we started housetraining the rescues, except we used indoor permanent chainlink pens, not x-pens. But for a little dude like Slummy, an x-pen should be fine.

If nothing else, x-pens are useful for a host of other things. Like rabbit housing -- which is what mine is currently being used for. ;)

Cat @ It's A Spring Thing October 30th, 2009 05:02:40 PM

not to be discouraging, but we've tried the x pen thing too....but it did come in handy when we moved before we got a fenced area for the dogs..

LorriM October 30th, 2009 06:35:28 PM

Though I haven't experienced it personally, I do understand that a dog that learns to go in his own crate is extremely difficult to housetrain so I'm sure you've got a challenging case.

Our dog Jack, adopted a little over a year ago, was left as a 4-6 month old puppy locked in a kitchen 12-13 hours a day so forced to eliminate in the room.

As a result he never learned to ask. Seems like your pup may have the same problem.

Jack, though, doesn't like going in the house but just doesn't know how to say he's in need! We were having a terrible time with accidents when we let him play in the backyard. He wanted to play out there fifty times a day and we couldn't distinguish "I'm bored" (he's a border collie) from "I'm about to burst!" and he realistically couldn't go out to play fifity times a day because he was afraid of the neighbor dogs.

We fixed our problem by making the back yard bathroom trips only. Now when he's antsy and wanting out in the backyard, we know he has to go!

And we take him for a walk or drive himn somewhere for entertainment.

Maybe you could stunningly, massively reward him when he goes outside or in another appropriate place. For a while we were cooing and smiling and dancing and handing out treats because Jack went straight out and did his business.

Natalie October 30th, 2009 10:11:54 PM

"What is it with small dogs?"  I swore I'd never have a small dog because I've always heard this too.  My aunt had mini poodles and they simply would not "go" outside but there was one that was pottery trained.  He could lift his leg and pee into a pottery pot 100% of the time.  But then there's Shiba Inus which are pretty well known for nearly house training themselves.  However, many of us have noted that they don't want to "go" in their own yards because that's their play zone and, if deprived of another location, will resort to going in the house (away from their own areas).  I've always wondered if some dogs don't mind doing their business inside because it 1) isn't their territory and 2) isn't their primary play zone; and 3) they know it will be quickly cleaned up.  And I suspect that last one's a biggie with mill dogs because it's such a step up from what they knew in early life.

PJB October 31st, 2009 12:44:38 AM

Pottery trained!! LOL

Natalie October 31st, 2009 06:14:49 PM

Some tips that have helped me with small dogs: If he is food motivated at all pay him every time he goes outside. To really communicate this well AS he is going say good potty or yes (as a reward marker) in a voice that will not make him stop (some people get to excited and it inturupts some dogs) and then immediatly after he is finished give him a tidbit he LOVES. Only treat him when he is outside and successful and you see him going. Pay him for pottying outside for MONTHS to really establish this as a good habit. When you wean off the food paycheck (don't show him the food to get him to go, that is a bribe) replace that reward with another to keep it a positive event.

If you take him outside keep him on leash until he goes. If he gets distracted with sniffing or whatnot simply walk to a new area. Be boring so he remembers why he is out there. Most dogs get distracted and forget, then go as soon as they get back inside.

If he doesn't go while outside, take him back out in 10 to 20 minutes to try again. Yup this is boring as hell and will pretty much make a couple of days a drag but consider it laying the foundation.

Keep a chart of when he goes, and what it is. This can help you see if there is a pattern. That way if you know he normally poos at supper time and you take him out but he doesn't go you have a reasonable idea he still has to go so you can keep taking him out or watch like a hawk for the squat.

My rescue pug took quite awhile to really get the idea that outside was better but she seems pretty solid now. My bigger challenge was getting her to stop pooing on purpose inside so she could eat it. (ahh the joys of dogs)

My frenchie, who I got at age 4 and wasn't housebroken got it in a month. (she is having issues now however most likely has a brain tumor and is on pred so she is getting a pass as I don't consider that a housebreaking issue)

I think alot of people with small dogs (not saying you) don't allow for the smaller bladder. Smaller bladder equals less time between potty breaks needed.

In the meantime they do also make doggy diapers for those times you just can't face another poopy crate. (not saying there won't be cleanup needed however VBG)

I hope that helps!

Tail wags, Marie http://k-9solutionsdogtraininginc.blogspot.com

Marie October 31st, 2009 09:17:55 PM

P.S. Oh and when he does go outside, aside from the food tidbit paycheck, have a real party about it so he clearly understands you LOVE it when he potties outside. Owners tend to get lax about this over time because it is behavior we expect from our dogs.

For rainy days a doogy raincoat can help too. (yes I know it is dorky) My frenchie refused to potty outside when it rained when I first got her but a raincoat cured that issue. Now I only need to put it on in serious downpours for her. Or you can build a covered area over some of your grass in the backyard.

Good luck!

Marie October 31st, 2009 09:23:31 PM

Thanks, Marie. I can and will incorporate your suggestions.

Dr. Patty Khuly November 1st, 2009 12:46:40 AM

I've head it explained that small dogs have such a smaller perspective of their 'den' than a large dog, that it's actually harder for them to fathom that an -entire house- is one big den. Thus, a corner sufficiently out of the way of where they usually hang out is, in their mind, 'outside'. A larger dog just 'gets it' faster because they're bigger and the scale makes more sense to them.

I've heard just as many people who had no problem training their toy breed, so who knows what it is.

Pai November 1st, 2009 03:08:22 AM

Did you try changing the name of the dog. What happens in slums at least some of them is that defecation in hallways and walls by those uncalculating, unconscious (oh poop drunk, stoned or drugged). We had a cat we named baby, she stayed very demanding; we changed her name to Abi much better almost overnight. Don't knock the idea. Biblically names were very important and got changed with the passage of rite. Abram to Abraham, Sarai to Sarah, Jacob to Israel. WORTH A TRY.

Antoinette November 5th, 2009 10:41:56 AM

I had a dog who would go in the other room to pee at night.

He was diagnosed at 9 with leukemia and had a raft of CHOPP, which put the cancer in remission.  He was diagnosed at 10 with proteinuria, for which he was prescribed enalapril.

The enalapril was like a miracle for him.  Dried him right up to the point where the peeing in the other room totally stopped.

I was horrified to learn that blood tests for kidney function don't show any problem until they are down to 35% function.

I will always wonder if he had kidney issues his whole life (with the micro-bladder sort of result) but we never knew until it got very bad............

He began to go down in back around the same time his kidney issues were diagnosed (corgis get degenerative myelopathy -- there is a DNA test -- and I think that's what it was), and was put down in June during a 5:00 am Sunday morning visit to the vet.  It was almost certainly the case that his kidneys had done all they could.

All of that is probably way too much information, but as a lay person I never know what is significant......

My point is -- if you "can't housebreak the dog" maybe something is wrong.....

:-(

Vicki in Michigan November 5th, 2009 11:11:02 AM

Well, I've searched all over but can't find our particular problem so if anybody can help I'd appreciate it.

We have a toy poodle and a bull Maltese (he weighs about 14 pounds). Honey (the poodle) has recently started peeing in the house when we are away. They are both five years old and have been house trained since they were puppies.

They have a dog door that leads to their own private yard. They get a walk every morning, at least twenty minutes usually considerably more up to a couple of hours.  We are pretty positive that Honey is the culprit as the spot is concentrated without any spray marks.

We thought that maybe she had been slapped by the dog door flaps and maybe she had started to fear the dog door but my wife just called me to tell me that there was an accident (after only about six hours) and she went outside and Honey had no trouble coming outside (through the dog door) to see what was going on.

We never did crate training to get them house trained to begin with we just worked with them on schedule and habit. They sleep in bed with us and will get up and go outside during the night if they have to go.

This has only been going on now for about a week. The one consolation is that she seems to be very apologetic when we come home and lament her stain (no yelling or punishing, just a nice quiet talk where we tell her how disappointed we are.

Any thoughts or ideas are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Peter

Peter November 20th, 2009 05:49:26 PM

Peter, I'm not sure if you'll look back for this - generally after about 5 days (a week at most), 99.9% of the commenters have moved on and don't look back. I was deleting some spam and saw your question. I'm not saying I have a sure-fire answer for you, but 3 things come to mind that might help (you may have already tried them).

1. Is there a way you can set up a camera (web-cam or similar) that would give you a time of day that this happens? If it seems to happen in a particular time frame, is there a way you can get a petsitter/dogwalker to stop by and take the dogs for a walk, or make them go out to play? Ithelps to make every outing 'worthwhile' forthedog, in terms of it being a chance for something good to happen (even if it's just praise - outside - right after it happens).

2. Making it a good experience - outside - goes hand in hand with not saying ANYTHING, even "just a nice quiet talk where we tell her how disappointed we are." Don't say a word, or let the dog know, in any way, that you finding a stain indoors is a 'situation.' When you come home, let the dogs out (is there a way you can 'lock' them out for the time it takes to clean the stain?) first, before you even hunt for a problem. Watch while pottying takes place and praise and treat - outside. Leave them out (or put them in the garage, kitchen, omewhere safe/dry/warm) while you clean the stain. Sometimes the stress of yelling/punishing - even quiet talks - in the presence of an accident, can make dogs weird and freaky and harder to change the behavior - which isn't something the dog is doing to make you unhappy- which is why you getting unhappy, at all, is weird and stressfulfor the dog.

3. Make sure you are using a product that breaks down the chemical bonds that form the odor that attracts dog to use the same area over and over. Even if the spots seem to be in different places, the whole room may be a 'bathroom area' because of odors that you don't even smell. Make sure you're not using anything with ammonia in it to clean, as that only makes the place smell more like a 'pee place' to a dog (or cat).

And, as Vicki in Michigan pointed out, a work up, especially completeurinalysis (not just a'dipstick')and checking levels relating to kidneys (although they are often inconclusive until almost too late), might be the very best way tofigure outthe problem.

KateH November 22nd, 2009 09:23:30 AM

Thanks for the reply.

We've started praising and treating for peeing outside. I think that she may have decided that she needed more treats so this is a way to squeeze them out of us. She is very smart.

We are using one of the commercial "pet odor" eliminators but we may have missed a spot.

I copied your comments and sent them to my wife. She is the one that gets stressed (a little) over these incidents so I am hoping she calms down. It has never worked for me. She still stresses when I am bad.

No problems Saturday or Sunday but I was home most of the time. We'll see.

Thanks again.

P

Peter November 23rd, 2009 02:36:19 PM

I agree with Lorrie above that dachshunds can be difficult to housetrain. However, I have a wirehaired dachshund (male) who I got from animal control at age 6 weeks. That little dog has the potty outside chip in his brain. He was the PERFECT puppy, slept through the night after the first week. Even recovering from back surgery at age 5 on crate rest, Fred let me know what he thought of the wee wee pad I kept under him overnight. He shoved it to the front of his crate! He preferred to go out with his hindquarters in a special harness to relieve himself. Wow!

In contrast, my older dachshund Ginger (female) suffered similar problems of defecating in the crate when I first adopted her. She originally had been papertrained and was a submissive pee-er. We worked through the submissive peeing by me not looking at her when I first got home and got her out of the crate. The dribble from crate to back door soon became just a puddle at the back door if I didn't open it soon enough. But that remedied itself too eventually.

Still there was the poop in the crate issue. Finally, I figured out that she might be stressed in the crate. Her favorite place to stay when I am away is burrowed under the covers on my bed. Taking what I thought was a big risk, I let her stay on the bed with a gate in the door to confine her. Voila! No more poop in the crate. Who says dogs don't train their owners?!

Yes, there was more to it than that, including taking poop/urine scented paper towels to a certain area of the back yard to transition her to pottying outside, but that I felt was a separate issue to the crate pooping (which I determined was stress related).

When I finally got Ginger eating Wellness Lowfat CORE, a grainfree diet, her indoor puddles disappeared...okay, EXCEPT in the case of major rainstorms.

Hope this information is of use.

Lesley Bowen January 5th, 2010 12:00:00 PM