Vet P.O.V. “Slaughterhouse Live” and the ethicurean debate on animal slaughter

October 30th, 2009  

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The moral problem of spilling blood will not go away.  Pollan and Grandin introduce the public to ancient topics in new language to a people bent on remaining ignorant of their actions.  (The system made me do it.)  But this stuff is old.

And the reporter advocates that because a lowly individual might do it wrong (aka sin) that the person should be protected from the incorrect appreciation of success by either avoiding the spilling of blood (aka abstinence aka veganism aka clean) or appealing to sanctioned (aka sanctified) procedures and professional (aka priestly) representatives.

One anthropology story indicates that the prohibition of spilling of blood went so far as having virgin girls seducing strangers so that none in the village would be guilty of blood spilling which was evidence of a capital offence.

Like it or not, one priestly tradition spinkled the crowd with the blood of correctly slaughtered animals to make sure those in attendence got the picture that things DIE so others may LIVE and not to lose sight of this deep, deep moral consternation.

Right action or right avoidance belie a deeper problem.  Whether property of the Creator or simply in possession of a brain stem, there are strong reasons to avoid killing something else to get through the day.

 

UnderTheFlowerpot October 30th, 2009 11:36:57 AM

Great post Dr Patty. Your analysis goes to the heart of the issue.

I've had my own animals in the past - cattle, chickens and sheep, and eventually came to the conclusion that I'm unable to slaughter them, or even delegate their slaughter, and still live in peace with myself afterward. The emotional reaction I have to slaughter is understated, but visceral memory persists, and I've stopped eating meat - even though that wasn't my original intention. I had to do it gradually, and learn to cook without relying on meat as a protein filler.

But some people can do it. I think that if we didn't relegate slaughterhouse duties to an underpaid and invisible workforce, we'd all be eating much less meat. And that would be a good thing.

brebis noire October 30th, 2009 11:38:02 AM

I personnally prefer vegetarianism.  If the only source of food were animals that I had to kill, I would starve.  I just could not do it.  That being said, if one wants to eat meat, isn't it better that they raise the animal kindly, and learn how to kill it quickly and (if such a term can be used) humanely?  How much better than the poor creatures raised in factories and carelessly, thoughtlessly killed (hopefully) before being butchered.  Just by the very process of raising, getting to know and then killing your own meat, I believe consumption of said product would drop.

staylor October 30th, 2009 11:56:29 AM

I've personally slaughtered two of my boy goats and I'm glad-but I'm really not feeling 'self-righteously carnivorous and eminently guilt-free'. I just know it was very quick(gunshot) and they were super happy(look at all that grain!) the second before.

But I made sure(mentally) that I really was prepared for them to be dead before I went ahead. And every bit of them is getting/has gotten used. I feel more guilt from eating a fast food hamburger than eating Boy and Bacon. (Yes, I name my food.)

rheather October 30th, 2009 12:09:13 PM

I think that how and where you were raised affects how you feel about this.  I grew up on a dairy/beef operation and we also had chickens and hogs.  We butchered all of our own personal meat animals  ourselves and never once did I feel guilty or even think about the animal when I was eating it.  These animals were raised and bred for food, and that's what we did with them.  Now that's not saying that we didn't take excellent care of them and name them. (rheather, we have had in the past Bacon, T-Bone, Rib Eye, Burger, Hambone etc so I know what you mean about naming them). It is my own personal opinion that more people need to look at food animals as what they are(food source) instead of feeling sorry for them or sympathizing with them.  Because when it all comes down to it I believe that God made certain animals for us to eat and some for other reasons. 

DNS83 October 30th, 2009 12:22:10 PM

rheather: I second the feeling of guilt with respect to eating animals I KNOW were not well-treated. Elvio? No guilt. Your average steak at a fine-dining establishment? There's some serious wish-I-hadn't-done-that about eating this kind of fare.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 30th, 2009 02:11:54 PM

That's the issue, which animals God made for eating vs some for other reasons.  Folks talking about how horrible it is to kill a horse for food while eating a Quarter Pounder, or munching on some KFC while saying that some cultures are savages for eating dogs.  This always seemed a bit hipocritical.  I couldn't bring myself to kill my dog and eat her even if she was a pig or cow.  That being said, there is nothing so tasty as a good thick filet cooked to medium rare.

But that's not what this article was about.  It was about the humanity issue, how the animal is treated while it's alive.  The factory farms are just horrible these days.  How they chain a cow to a feeding trough for days, perhaps weeks on end so they can fatten it up, or do other unhumaine things to the animal in the name of "production" and "quality" just sickens me. 

But I feel guilty because I know I still don't do my part.  The organic open range well treated beef is over twice as much $$$ as the super market beef that was treated horribly prior to death.  Furthermore, I have read the stories about the "open range" or "drug free" being just a label.  For a chicken to be considered "free range" i think they only have to turn it loose in a small fenced area for like 10 minutes a day.  That ain't right, now is it?  I also had a farmer tell me how much better their "feed" is than the stuff the "natural" chickens eat.  Who's right?  Hell, I don't know.  I can't kill my own and I can't trust that purchasing something that is labeled as "treated humane" actually was.  With that, I am pretty much at a loss.

 

EAB October 30th, 2009 02:14:01 PM

I've never seen a wolf or lion apologize and agonize over its prey before killing and eating it. 

Why should humans have too?  Why the guilt at being an animal and part of the food chain?

In the end, is this not the last human ploy to make us "better" than the animals we are?  We found out that all out past rationales were wrong - they do have emotions, feel pain, and even use tools...something had got to keep us seperate from them!!! oh my! 

If anything humanity has allowed us to do with the one thing our fellow predators don't - to be humane.  A good life, a quick death, a useful purpose....hmmm, sounds like what we all wanted anyway....

And don't tell me not to feel pride when butchering an animal I raised successfully for food.  If the vegan can smile over the fruits of his labor stolen from the garden, then I can smile over the fruits of my labor from the pasture and barn.  It's not disrespectful, its the satisfaction of a predator meeting a biological need.

 

 

 

Wendy October 30th, 2009 03:39:10 PM

"If the vegan can smile over the fruits of his labor stolen from the garden, then I can smile over the fruits of my labor from the pasture and barn."

Wendy: I couldn't help but smile at the "stealing" thing. I always feel like I'm making away with my chickens' eggs. Like taking candy from a baby. 

"Don't worry, Mom. You feed us and we'll make more."

Now, why don't more people raise their own chickens? You don't even have to kill them and they live to amuse you and generally treat you right. 

You don't have to be perfect. I'm nowhere near it on this issue. But I am getting better. Learning where all the farms are helps. For all of you looking to do a better job, start here.

 

 

Dr. Patty Khuly October 30th, 2009 04:41:49 PM

Oh, and EAB: If you're willing to go mail order, you CAN find cheaper, well-raised, well-slaughtered meats––no matter where you live. Just be prepared to freeze. 

Then there's the issue of paying twice as much: It's not twice as much if you only eat half. ;-)

Dr. Patty Khuly October 30th, 2009 04:44:05 PM

Yes, walking up behind a being and shooting it in the back of the head will catch it by surprise and prevent that being's stress, but what of the stress of all who witness it?

Not much I agree with Kant about, but his acknowledgment that cruelty to animals can lead to cruelty to humans is a claim with merit.  I believe the same is true for those who kill without cruelty.  Ending life becomes too easy after a while.  Or, if someone truly cares for animals, it soon drives one to severe emotional distress, something called "compassion fatique" in the sheltering world.  I did once play with this idea and thought that perhaps, if people had to slaughter their own meat they might decide to simply quit eating it or at least to eat less.  Or, that it was important to teach children that a steak does not arrive on earth on a styrofoam tray with plastic wrap over it.  But I'm not convinced it doesn't just make blood-letting more acceptable.

The cruelty, however, is equally in the raising of our meat -- I think death may even be preferable to a veal box or a hog factory farm or a battery hen cage.

 

LacyRudy October 30th, 2009 04:55:17 PM

Personally, I don't think I'd be able to eat anything I raised personally. I wasn't raised in a farming environment, and it would feel like eating a member of the family. I don't know that I'd ever be capable of drawing a firm enough distinction between pet and livestock. If I had to kill in order to eat meat, I'd hunt it, not farm it.

3 Fabulous Felines October 30th, 2009 06:01:29 PM

Back when most people had daily lives much more closely connected to animals as food and workers  that intimacy and knowledge didn't prevent the near extinction of the bison, the extinction of the passenger pigeon, and mine ponies leading nasty and short lives.  People have never let their higher impulses get in the way of rationalized "necessity".

I don't intend to eat them but I have given some passing thought to the shotgun and the cats if it comes to that.  It's messy but indeed instantaneous, and PrettyCat would certainly find a trip to a vet extremely stressful unless already unconscious.  The stress on me of doing it and cleaning up afterwards be damned.

Will October 30th, 2009 07:15:55 PM

That article came out just a couple weeks after my first chicken butchery, and I got the discomfiting feeling that I was on the "cutting edge" (sorry) of a fad.  =\

I was not raised on a farm myself, but I did enjoy spending time with my grandfather's herd of cattle, named one or two, and later ate them.  No qualms.  I don't feel guilty eating meat (and it's not particularly often) so this isn't about justifying my meat-eating ways.  The thing about butchering my first chicken was the fear not of killing the chicken, but of killing the chicken poorly.  It ended up being not nearly as traumatic as I expected, so I figure I can't have gone too far astray.  That said, I do worry that I'm still not very good at it.

The second chicken butchery occurred last weekend, when a pair were gallivanting outside their electric net, and my whippet gal snagged one pretty quickly.  I did take the chicken from her in order to preserve the meat (and it wasn't in very good shape, really) & did my best after hastily stashing my very proud girl away.  I am myself proud of her prey drive, but I will have to do more work with her because I can't have her killing any chicken that flies over the electric net.

Tangentially, while I am comfortable saying that chickens are the most unintelligent animals I have ever interacted with, I will say this:  there have been no escapees from the poultry yard this week.  =7

Julie in OH October 30th, 2009 08:59:08 PM

I used to be a hamburger with bacon at least twice a week kinda girl.  My friends nicknamed me "beef" because of my proclivity for all things meat.  Never once did I feel that my carnivorous lifestyle conflicted with my love for animals. 

My senior year in college, I took a class called "Animal Rights:Theory and Practice."  Changed my life.  Yes, much of the class was devoted to discussing the merits of Kant, Rawls, Singer, et al., but we were also exposed to the realities of today's agribusiness model of meat production.  After watching a video of what I hope are some of the worse factory farms/processing plants in the country, I gave up eating meat.

I don't consider myself a supporter of animal rights; rather, I lean more towards an animal welfarist approach.  But if these animals are going to sacrifice their lives, albeit unwittingly, for our consumption, the very least we can do is offer them a dignified death.  If butchering one's own meat can guarantee this, then I don't see a problem with it for most people.

As for me, however, I'm sticking with vegetarianism for now.  The thing is, I'm hoping to become a veterinarian some day.  I see a conflict between the veterinarian's role as an animal's advocate and the consumer's participatory role in meat consumption.  What's the point of spending your day trying to save an animal's life when, at the end of the day, you're just going to go home and consume the flesh of an animal who was killed so you could eat it?  Makes the job seem pointless.  At least that's the only thing I've been able to come up with so far...can any practicing omniverous vets offer any insight?

As an aside...

Dr. Patty,

I discovered your  blog last weekend and was instantly hooked.  (Spent several hours catching up on your previous few months for posting)  Thanks again for all the informative, thought-provoking posts.

JL October 30th, 2009 10:25:52 PM

"What's the point of spending your day trying to save an animal's life when, at the end of the day, you're just going to go home and consume the flesh of an animal who was killed so you could eat it?"

The point is, one does what one can with the resources one has.  Kant, Rawls, Singer, et al. deal in theory, in abstractions.  Those are neat and tidy.  Life isn't.

Will October 30th, 2009 10:55:10 PM

Thank you Will

PJB October 31st, 2009 12:53:21 AM

Well, I don't feel particularly guilty about the animals I've killed, but I'm certainly not "self-rightous" about it.

I can't definitely get defensive, though. It's hard to hear people ignorantly bad-mouthing hunting (which I practice) and animal farming (which I've helped with) or, even worse, equating either one with modern agribusiness.

I'm just now realizing how lucky I was to grow up in a rural area and being able to participate in real agriculture (ie, not big business, but small farming and hunting) from an early age. I appreciate where all my food comes from,  (OK, *now* I'm being self-rightous!)

Humans have to get their protein from somewhere. I feel better about my freezer full of venison than I would about replacing it with acres of monocultured and pesticide-laden soy.

cyborgsuzy October 31st, 2009 01:13:26 AM

"What's the point of spending your day trying to save an animal's life when, at the end of the day, you're just going to go home and consume the flesh of an animal who was killed so you could eat it?"

The life of a pet animal is different than that of an animal raised to be food. Which is different from a wild animal which is different from the bugs that you killed on your windsheild today or the birds and small rodents that died while the soy you eat was harvested last summer. Making intelligent choices that minimize pain and suffering is one thing. Agonizing over all the ways in which your life has snuffed out other lives will only drive you crazy.

 

cyborgsuzy October 31st, 2009 01:19:04 AM

JL: I'm so happy you found us!

"What's the point of spending your day trying to save an animal's life when, at the end of the day, you're just going to go home and consume the flesh of an animal who was killed so you could eat it? Makes the job seem pointless. At least that's the only thing I've been able to come up with so far...can any practicing omniverous vets offer any insight?"

A hearty 'amen!' to Will's assessment and a nod to CyborgSuzy's comment on the risks of routine hand-wringing, but let me see if I can take it further:

Yes, I can see how it would seem pointless to practice with a high degree of moral inconsistency in one's private and professional lives. 

For some veterinarians that means veganism (vegetarianism doesn't go far enough for the purists), for others that means compartmentalizing our brains or hiding our heads in the sand. Others truly don't perceive animal use in industrial setting as cruel––or they try to do their best by eating less meat, knowing that every bit counts while acknowledging that the system should change but they can't save every starving child in Africa by cleaning up their dinner plates. 

No, one size does not fit all. The human brain has a way of allowing us all to survive or maintain the status quo we were raised with by wrapping itself around even the coldest, cruelest realities. 

From my personal point of view, I accept that meat can be had humanely. I know because I've raised it, or because I can go to a farm's website and meet the people who raised it and slaughtered it. I'm as morally comfortable about this meat's slaughter as I am about euthanizing a pet when her time has come. To me, both practices exist on the same plane. No inconsistency. 

That may not make you feel any better. In fact, it'll probably repulse you. But that is how I, as an omnivore, see my personal dilemma. If I couldn't reconcile slaughter with my professional goals I agree that veganism would be my only choice. 

Dr. Patty Khuly October 31st, 2009 07:23:26 AM

I've been noodling over the issue of being raised in a farm/rural environment and how much bearing that should have on how we view animal use. 

Even for us highly (sub)urbanized folk (who, for example, were raised on rollerblades, crowded beaches and South Beach nightlife), there is a way to transcend your experience by applying the same values you were raised with to any of life's moral dilemmas. 

The key is to gain exposure to the problem (as JL did in college). Any human soul who was raised to think for themselves should be able to handle the issue of animal use directly once they see the problem in all its dimensions. 

For city folk, I agree that veganism would seem more accessible as a solution. But for some of us urban dwellers, adopting a third way proves equally doable once we recognize that there is nothing magical about raising a couple of goats or a flock of backyard chickens. Even less so when it comes to surfing the internet and visiting nearby farms on the weekend. Anyone can do it. 

Dr. Patty Khuly October 31st, 2009 07:40:15 AM

OK, one more comment on the fad thing (thanks for bringing it up, Julie):

Tthere's nothing "faddish" about learning how your food comes to your plate. Much though the NYT gave it that spin by including this article in the Style section and questioning the motives of the slaughter class participants, slaughtering an animal for the first time is a life-changing event.

Sure, you may never want to slaughter another animal again in your whole life. You may never even eat meat again. But killing something with your bare hands has a way of altering the fabric or your own personal inner universe. I reject the notion of this piece as reflecting a fad. Rather, it's a trend that reflects a larger movement of minds towards a better way of seeing/doing things. 

Does it deserve to get treated on the Style page? In its broadest sense, yes. Still, I agree with Julie. I was uncomfortable with the concept of a über-foodie, cool-kid trend. It minimizes the seriousness of tackling something as important as learning to kill animals humanely. 

 

Dr. Patty Khuly October 31st, 2009 07:48:04 AM

It seems as if I'm burning up this thread solo, but here goes: Another article worth commenting on, an observation...and a threat.

The article: Over at today's WSJ (in the 'life and style' section, again). Jonathan Safran Foer talks up his new book ("Eating Animals") via a sneaky piece of brilliance.

Observation: It's more to my point of a movement along Michael Pollan's lines. This is no fad, ladies and gentlemen. 

The threat: You'll be getting treated to this discussion on Monday. But don't worry...it's not just the same old lines on slaughter. In this one I'll be treating the bigger issues with respect to how we treat our shelter dogs. And a week from today I'll be reviewing the book.

Save your comments. Head on over to the Safran Foer article in the meantime.

Dr. Patty Khuly October 31st, 2009 10:10:50 AM

I have raised wether goats, sheep, pigs and other animals for our own meat for years and only recently switched to buying from other neighbors with small herds. Yes, I've either done my own slaughtering or had our neigbors who are custom butchers come and do it on site. I always felt it was something I owed our animals, both to make their lives as pleasant as possible and to make their deaths quick, painless and useful (not just the landfill). Like it or not, we are all somebody's dinner sooner or later! Should only grazers or microorganisms eat?  Let those who can do well on only plant protein be vegetarian; if I tried it, I would be fighting the cat for her mice within a week (lol).

Maria Shanley October 31st, 2009 12:17:30 PM

I'm a little late here, sorry; it took me a while to compose my thoughts.  As I mentioned in the recent "Tulip pimping" thread, the reason we don't have a dairy animal is that we couldn't bear to see the male offspring go for meat.

My experience with shooting an animal in the brain was not a positive one.

A few months ago a very sick possum showed up in my barn and wouldn't leave, and was threatening the cats.  We improvised a noose out of a pipe and some wire, dragged it out of the barn and onto a tarp, and my husband shot the poor sick thing.  It was a horrible experience in its entirety; it was after dark, so we shone the car's lights but visibility was still nearly nothing.  The poor critter was so sick it could barely move, and so scared.  My husband shot it at near point-blank range (staying far enough away that the thing couldn't reach him).  The bullet went into its tiny brain, but even so it thrashed and thrashed; he ended up making a guess and going for the heart, too, to make it stop.  That poor possum.  Poor, poor, sick, terrified, thrashing possum.

Even before this incident, we had doubted we could consign a pet (and anything born on our farm would be a pet by default) to meat.  Perhaps I'm a hypocrite, for not being able to kill my own meat, to want it prepackaged so I don't have to deal with it.  But you know, we've become a rather specialized society: I don't have to dig up my own oil and refine my own gasoline, nor do I have to mine my own ore, smelt it, and cast it into tools.  I don't *have* to raise and slaughter my own meat to believe that it came from a living animal and treat it with due consideration.

But I respect those of you who can.

Galadriel October 31st, 2009 02:54:49 PM

galadriel: No you don't have to slaughter your own any more than I'll slaughter my own goats. Chickens? I can handle that. But I don't believe that makes me a "chickocrite."  

We all have lines that we can't cross but that doesn't mean we can't outsource to excellent providers when we can't actually raise or kill our own...as I'm sure you're aware. 

Sorry about your possum experience. Reminds me of a few times I wish I could erase from the old memory bank. 

Dr. Patty Khuly October 31st, 2009 03:30:08 PM

You know, we couldn't even slaughter our own chickies.  When one hen got vicious, we simply gave her to a farm that kept their chickens in a chicken house instead of free roaming.  Our hens were *stupid* creatures, and she in particular was a hateful little beast, but we still couldn't stomach the idea of killing and eating her.  (head shake)  I just can't handle the idea of eating any animal I've known personally.

Except maaaaaybe that peacock that lives somewhere northish of me.

Galadriel October 31st, 2009 07:24:16 PM

Eat only half.  You know, my "human" Dr. has suggested that advice as well though more for my health than any animals <GRIN>.

EAB November 2nd, 2009 09:31:59 AM

I have no problem with eating things that were alive-animal or vegetable.  Mother Nature has determined that for me to survive, I must eat, to eat, something else must die.  I have been a livestock producer and equestrienne.  I DO have a problem with slaughter factories that must annihilate 1100 hogs an hour, 6 days a week, 10 hrs a day at the expense of their workerd, government inspectors and food quality.  Moving that number of aniamls (20,000 per day-one plant) is tremendous stress on them, and cleanliness and quality are sacrificed with the animals!.. In addition, inspection budgets and regulations were gutted in the 80's and 90's, so there is less control over what the company is allowed to do!!! Better to buy locally and support a local farmer than to buy from the big box super stores and support the foreign owners of these companies, who care little for their employees, health and safety and our country.  It's all about greed and money for them.

Kim Houlding DVM November 8th, 2009 01:03:14 PM

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