Scary...

But more importantly, Vetsulin has not been working so well. Says the FDA. Many more patients with that problem.

Have a great day,

Robert November 5th, 2009 08:25:35 AM

We'd like to know what test confirmed the case. Our clinic does not have the resources of the IDPH, Iowa State Vet. College, the Center for Advanced Host Defenses, Immunobiotics and Translational Comparative Medicine, the USDA, and the IDALS Animal Industry Bureau that collaborated to confirm the disease.

What about a simple nose swab...?

Robert November 5th, 2009 08:28:53 AM

It's a nasal swab/wash that confirmed the diagnosis, I read somewhere. I don't know what you have to do to confirm a case but I would call the CDC for info. They have a [human] clinicians' page for H1N1 somewhere. The test shouldn't be too different, I would imagine. Not if it's looking for antigen. 

Dr. Patty Khuly November 5th, 2009 08:38:45 AM

I wasn't happy to see this news, either, especially with my little kittens - their immune systems are still getting built up!

When we were in for shots a couple weeks back I asked, "Swine Flu?  Any reason to worry about it with the little ones?"  And my vet said, no, nothing to be concerned about.  I'm sure he started pounding his head into an exam table the minute this news hit the wires.

I can't imagine getting rid of my pets or sending them outside for the flu season!  We're all in it together. :)

Though I guess I can no longer use the kittens as kleenex if I come down with a case of H1N1, which is a shame, cause they're so much softer than tissues. ;)

But I do have to say that overall, I won't be making any drastic changes.  I still wash my hands a lot, eat well and get enough sleep - all things that will keep my immune system happy.  (It also helps that I don't work in an office full of sick people.)

Cindy November 5th, 2009 09:11:05 AM

It's really interesting that so much of the focus is on PETS as disease vectors. 

My concern is the absolute opposite:  That I will contract H1N1 and give it to my pets.  After all, I'm the one leaving the house every day and touching germy items all over, then coming home.  My office is crawling with employees who just recovered from it and I am crossing my fingers that they are not contagious.

Sad statement that humans would throw their pets out or look at their pets as though the pets were going to give them H1N1, when most of the transmission is certainly the other way around. 

I'm really worried for my kitties!

Stefani November 5th, 2009 10:00:43 AM

I'm going to have to beg to disagree with the "get vaccinated". This vaccine is full of adjuncts designed to increase immune response while requiring less actual vaccine. Despite the safe line toted by officials, adjuncts are really not things you should choose to put into your body.

seen this yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke0AfIFWwd8

can't say that a virus that has already mutated, jumping species yet again really surprises me though.

LorriM November 5th, 2009 10:03:03 AM

Unfortunately there WILL be people who panic at this news and get rid of their cats or put indoor only cats outdoors to survive. ONE cat? I'm surely not going to panic at those percentages. Hope someone can get some common sense information out to the general media instead of sensationalizing this one incident!

dottie November 5th, 2009 10:03:26 AM

Stefani, my sister got swine flu a few weeks ago and that was her immediate reaction as well.  "Oh no!  What about the boys??"  Neither of them got it, thank bob, but it's nearly impossible to make cats keep their distance when human is curled up in bed.  They loved the week of extra snuggles.  I do think she abided by the "no kisses" rule.

AnneT November 5th, 2009 10:07:07 AM

I hope people realize that, in the majority of cases that are being called 'H1N1' that NO actual test to confirm or deny the actual strain of virus is done. The test is expensive and time consuming, and since treatment doesn't differ, hospitals and doctor's offices are tallying up 'swine flu' cases without real confirmation. Some parents who've been told their kids have H1N1 in less than a 3 minute exam, are rightly ticked off by this disregard for real science.

K November 5th, 2009 10:42:27 AM

I think it's important to handle news like this as responsibly as possible.  With the way the news media pushes stories, it's easy for the general public to react before understanding details and facts. As such, we don't seem to have much of either to go on. I too, am curious about the testing process used for this single case. I understand that in-house human H1N1 test results are considered marginal-I don't have numbers regarding the percentage of false positives/false negatives. It sounds as though, with this cat there were two tests at least? One initial, and then one confirming?

I for one, need more information.  For now I'll stick with common sense and the CDC's recommendations.  Hopefully the general public will, too.

Renee November 5th, 2009 10:43:41 AM

I had it, too, according to my GP who claims that the H1N1 is just about the only flu I could've been exposed to within the past few weeks/ Didn't help that I had dish-sharing dinner with the dad of a confirmed case (before we knew).

I'll agree with everyone here and say it's US that will bring it to our pets. The imperative this case implies is that we keep our pets safe by practicing diligent home care in their presence whenever we're ill.

Dr. Patty Khuly November 5th, 2009 10:48:05 AM

Since many of us work in the industry there is an upside (albeit a bit crass). My pediatrician is extremely busy; they even hired extra doctors and technicians.

The economy needs H1N1! And extra health vigilance is not such a bad thing either.

Robert November 5th, 2009 11:22:27 AM

Unfortunately there WILL be people who panic at this news and get rid of their cats or put indoor only cats outdoors to survive. ONE cat? I'm surely not going to panic at those percentages. Hope someone can get some common sense information out to the general media instead of sensationalizing this one incident!

So far, all the "panic" I've seen has been on pet sites, with people leaping to the conclusion that all those other people, the stupid ones, are going to get rid of their cats. Or put them outside. Or "worse." All the actual news coverage I've seen of this has been, "oh, wow, we didn't know our pets might be at risk, too."

Your news coverage may vary, of course.

LorriM, that was a seasonal flu shot, not H1N1. Epstein-Barre is a known, but extremely rare, potential adverse side effect of influenza vaccine--any influenza vaccine. Meanwhile, we have 36,000 deaths from flu annually when we have just one strain of flu going around, not two, and not one that seems to be "targeting" children and young adults for its worst effects. Oh, and adjuvants (not "adjuncts") are used in vaccines in Europe apparently without the horrific effects claimed for them here.

Honestly, I think a lot of the hyper-ventilating is the effect of a current parental population too young ever to have seen a real epidemic without the "horrors" of current medicine, including vaccines.

Lis November 5th, 2009 11:27:41 AM

sorry Lis...I am working on little sleep..adjuvants are not particularly safe, hence the adjuvant free h1n1 vaccine given currently to pregnant women.

Here's another web site for you to "debunk"

http://birdflu666.wordpress.com/2009/07/29/why-are-the-vaccines-with-adjuvants-not-being-tested-in-the-us/

I can list them all day. The idea is that people do your research, don't take government/dr.'s word that is is safe..

and europe..spare me..they will let anything on the market and claim it's safe. History will back me up there...

LorriM November 5th, 2009 11:35:58 AM

Re:  H1N1 being diagnosed without testing.

True, but this isn't as unfounded as it may sound.

Here is why: 

Of those people who have been tested (in the hospital, etc) to date, the overwhelming majority (last time I checked flu.gov, over 90%) of the flu that has been seen is H1N1.

The regular seasonal flu just simply hasn't taken off yet.

So, it's a good bet that someone who has the flu NOW actually does have H1N1.  In February, it will likely be different, and simply assuming it's H1N1 will be more irresponsible.  But right now, that's what is out there, so it's what people have.

Go poke around on the flu.gov site, lots of interesting info.

I am hoping that the fact that we have only 1 case means it's not THAT readily transmissable to cadts.

Stefani November 5th, 2009 11:57:37 AM

Well, yes, you should prefer a paper in a peer-reviewed scientific journal to a blog post on a blog where the next post is entitled "WHO begins US coup d'etat." Really, truly, you should.

Nevertheless, what that peer-reviewed paper in the scientific journal says is, "Adjuvants have both benefits and risks. Research continues into the risks, and how to reduce the risks while maximizing the benefits."

This is why you're supposed to actually read the material they give you when you go for a flu shot. There are some people who shouldn't have them. And even with the best screening possible, there will be some people who have adverse effects. For some people, those adverse effects will be serious.

But you know what? Getting an onion taste in your mouth when you use a prescription inhaler is considered an "adverse effect." As is getting Espstein-Barre from a flu shot. All those things count.

But so do the 36,000 dead from flu every year, in a normal year.

There are risks from getting a flu shot, but the risks from not getting a flu shot are much higher.

Lis November 5th, 2009 12:00:31 PM

So we have two patients, siblings in an extended family of indoor cats, who have tested weak positive for FeLV twice. They come from a household of one confirmed H1N1 positive human. There are no other known viruses that may cross-mark and cause this result. We tracked down the vets at Iowa State for the proper technique and are now contacting the State of FL and UF Vet Hospital for next steps.

Will keep you updated....

Robert November 5th, 2009 12:17:13 PM

Lis, it's Guillain-Barre Syndrome that was associated with the 1976 vaccinations.  How's the CDC as a cite?  In addition, GBS is but one of numerous autoimmune disorders that has been associated with vaccines and reactions, including recurring EBV (there's your Epstein-Barr), all of which are played down by splitting them up and showing a small likelihood of each rather than the collective likelihood of developing any of them.  Some of us have been watching the explosion of autoimmune disorders and disability from them for years and we're not willing to have them dismissed as "better diagnostics" rather than real and increasing problems.  There are now many (not "some") with compromised immune systems who should not be given vaccines and we're growing in number by the day.

PJB http://pjboosinger.viviti.com/ November 5th, 2009 12:28:22 PM

The immuno-compromised are exactly the ones at the greatest risk from this flu. The worst side effect of all is death. I'll be getting my shot when its available to my demographic. Until then, I'll be washing my hands, I've got a Tamiflu Rx on the ready, and I'll be hoping that dogs don't start catching it.

Susan November 5th, 2009 12:54:29 PM

"The immuno-compromised are exactly the ones at the greatest risk from this flu."  True but also at the greatest risk of side effects and the vaccine going horribly wrong in our immune systems.  We're pretty much hanged either way.  (Not that the vaccine is a realistic option for most of us for the next few weeks to months anyway.)

I have no doubt my pets' immune systems work much the same as my own which means, if they are damaged or compromised by past vaccines or chronic health problems, they will also be more susceptible to H1N1 and it's worst effects.  No doubt one of the factors for this poor cat was being 13 years old and probably having had 13 years of annual vaccination soup.

PJB November 5th, 2009 01:26:40 PM

On the lines of protecting our pets and ourselves, we all know that the infectious period extends at least a day back before the symptoms; that "stay home if you're sick" and "don't cuddle them while you're sick" is closing the barn door after the H1N1 flew out?

and with that, since I'm on an upside down schedule right now too, sweet dreams all.  Lis, you have the floor.

PJB November 5th, 2009 01:48:28 PM

I spent most of last week at home nursing my son through h1n1.  I'm certainly not going to dump him (unless I have to keep tripping over his wet towels on the floor, anyway).

My husband and I are fine, we must have had some kind of immunity already.  But do you think the incubation period in cats is the same as the incubation period in humans?

Diane November 5th, 2009 02:06:45 PM

Any reason to expect that dogs could contract it too?   Not trying to be an alarmist, just wondering if that's a possibility too.

Carol November 5th, 2009 02:32:42 PM

You want anecdotal evidence? For the last thirty years or so things have gone one of two ways for me, either:

Lis doesn't get flu vaccine--->Lis gets flu--->Lis gets hospitalized

Or,

Lis does get flu vaccine--->Lis doesn't get flu--->Lis spends the winter basically healthy.

So, sure, maybe it's wrecking my immune system, causing cancer, and making me insane in the long run, but in the short run--only the last few decades, after all--it has meant that I don't get hospitalized with a truly life-threatening condition every single year.

Lis November 5th, 2009 03:07:33 PM

Lis, it's like the vegan vs. omnivore argument.  I'm getting an H1N1 vaccine when it's finally available (already got the seasonal vaccine) because, like you,  I've gotten sick when I've gone unvaccinated - I'll take my chances with side effects.  Others can do what they want and take their chances with the side effects of the flu...

I've always thought over the years how lucky dogs and cats were that they didn't had to suffer the miseries of all the colds and flus that humans get.  Guess we may have to re-think that assumption.  Gives me yet another good reason to get vaccinated.

Di November 5th, 2009 03:36:16 PM

LorriM: I tried to reformat your post and couldn't. I hope this indirect link to a lost of advuvant-related abstracts works better:

http://www.sciencedirect.com

...then search for vaccine adjuvants

Dr. Patty Khuly November 5th, 2009 03:42:43 PM

Geez, louise...I can only imagine the calls we'll get at the clinic if this gets heavily publicized.  I'm so tired of hearing about H1N1...it's the freaking flu! Yes, this strain is a little nastier and it started earlier than the other strains typically do, and of course it's spreading like wildfire.  But people die of the flu every year, and pets trading viruses with their owners is nothing new, either.  Like the CDC says - use some common sense.  Wash your hands.  Get rid of your nasty Kleenex.  Don't cough on people.  Stay home if you're sick.  Get vaccinated, esp. if you're a high-risk group.  And if your pet comes down with a presumed viral infection, take them to the vet, follow the vet's recommendations, and use all the same precautions you would with any sick pet. 

anna November 5th, 2009 04:19:43 PM

Lis does get flu vaccine--->Lis doesn't get flu--->Lis spends the winter basically healthy.

Yeah.  My anecdata supports yours.  I used to get the flu every winter,  but not for the last 15.  I've never been hospitalized but came close a few times.  I will take my chances with the vaccines (even the swine flu vaccine of 1978) based on evidence from MDs and even the evil gummint seecrit laboratories over the insanity being spouted by fruitcakes like Jenny McCarthy.

That correlation does NOT prove causation is a fundamental principle of scientific investigation.  It would be nice if reporters, interested laypeople, alternative medical enthusiasts, and even MDs blathering about risk factors for this, that, and the other thing would remember that.

Will November 5th, 2009 04:34:05 PM

1978 -> 1976.  Clearly I've been drain bramaged by exposure to Ugg Boot spam.

Will November 5th, 2009 04:36:33 PM

LorriM

So, you're saying that a housemom with an internet connection is better informed than professionally trained MDs and the NIH researchers who advise the government?

Who writes the information on the internet that you're referencing?  Other housemoms?

Fedup November 5th, 2009 06:54:00 PM

Fedup: Do you watch nightline, nightly news? They have interviewed MD's that call the vaccine risky. Have you heard of VARS ? A government fund set up for 1/4 million to those affected by adverse reactions, including death?

LorriM, PJ: I'm with you. Have seen one case of pet adverse vaccine & know of one baby death, personally. And immune system related disease? Well, anecdotally have a relative with that, and a reaction to egg-based vaccine in the early 60's.

I haven't had the flu in years, and goodness knows the national spread of germs via mail !

I am surprised our pets don't get sick as often & the same as we do.

BarbA/NH November 5th, 2009 07:36:25 PM

Fedup: Do you watch nightline, nightly news? They have interviewed MD's that call the vaccine risky. Have you heard of VARS ? A government fund set up for 1/4 million to those affected by adverse reactions, including death?

Barb, do you realize that the news media have fallen into the trap of "balancing" every story? No matter what it is, if there is a contrary point of view, no matter how flimsily based, the story isn't "balanced" unless it is presented, and without saying, oh, BTW, Dr. Ego's Ph.D. is in a different field entirely, and everyone knowledgable on this topic regards his theories as pure swill."

And I trust you also realize that not all MDs are experts in every medical topic. I have a fantastic doctor, whom I treasure for his expertise and interest in asthma, allergy, and immunology--the areas of most concern to me for my day-to-day health. But two weeks ago, when I fell and hurt my hand, he tried to get me an immediate appointment with an orthopedist, and when he couldn't, found one who was willing to do a "wet read" on the xrays of my hand, so that he could have a reasonable degree of certainty that sending me home with an ace bandage and pain meds was the correct move. Why did this fantastic doctor not decide this for himself, without the input of an orthopedist? Because he's not an orthopedist, and it was my hand.

There are lots of doctors who are good doctors, maybe experts in their fields, who are not experts on vaccines, and immunology, and the behavior of highly infectious diseases. They may have their opinions on the matter, but they're not magically right when talking outside their field of expertise, just because they have the letters MD after their names.

Yes, there are adverse reactions to vaccines. Some of them are severe, dangerous and scary. Some of them are even fatal. But far more people die every year from flu. Influenza is not a joke. It is not trivial. It's a genuine, honest-to-goodness killer. There's a small degree of risk in getting the flu vaccine--whether seasonal or H1N1. There's a much larger risk in not getting the vaccine, and getting the flu, instead.

Lis November 5th, 2009 08:09:46 PM

Anyone have any idea if h1n1 actually poses any threat to cats?

My FIV+ cat is just getting over some neuro issues, and EVERYONE on my campus is getting this thing and refusing to stay home.

I actually think I may have had it (started to get something that was definitely a flu of some sort last week, but woke up and was fine... I have an immune system of steel), so I am hoping I'm in the clear, but... yeah.

3 Fabulous Felines November 5th, 2009 08:34:04 PM

With only an N of 1 there's no way to tell.  The cat was 13 and survived, which is encouraging but certainly not at all definitive.

Will November 5th, 2009 09:20:42 PM

<<So, you're saying that a housemom with an internet connection is better informed than professionally trained MDs and the NIH researchers who advise the government? Who writes the information on the internet that you're referencing? Other housemoms?>>

hum..fedup..obviously you skipped reading a few of my links. Are you also implying I am a housemom with an internet connection?....shouldn't make asinine assumptions if that is the case.

Love the fake name btw....

Lis, sorry to hear you are personally so susceptible to illness, I'd make s few suggestions, but you don't strike me as the receptive type. And if the vaccines are damaging your immune system, you are caught in a tangled web.

I really would have thought the post the other day would have brought the extremists out of the closet...how amusing that it a post about a flu vaccine that does it. But then again, I really should not be surprised, after all when New Orleans was flooding and people were dying, others were looting stores for Tv's and sneakers...you never do know how the human brain will work.

But if you really are willing just to take everything that the health care community and the government says as gospel, can I please borrow those rose colored glasses?

Dr. K...sorry if there was a problem with the science digest link...I was tired, maybe I didn't copy it correctly.

In closing on this topic, I'd like to say this. There is ample documented issues with vaccines. Does that mean that no one should get one?...no probably not, does it mean that we should all run off in a 1/2 panic like good sheep and get one because the general consensus is we should? No, it doesn't.

who last read or even saw the safety papers that came with your last vaccine?....just because it is "healthcare" it doesn't mean ou don't need to do do diulgenece...and buyer beware...

20 years ago, there were many "cures" and drugs on the market that are no longer there...because time showed the risks didn't outweigh the benefits.

go get your flu shot if you want. But don't dismiss legitimate concerns and arguments because they are not the "party line" And hopefully the worst side effect anyone suffers in pain and inflamation at the site of the injection.

LorriM November 5th, 2009 09:45:55 PM

But if you really are willing just to take everything that the health care community and the government says as gospel, can I please borrow those rose colored glasses?

Who else are we to believe?  LorriM... or maybe the NIH, CDC, FDA, etc.  I'd rather not live in a conspiracy theory.

You are NOT 'better informed' simply because you found a contradictory opinion on the web.

Fedup November 5th, 2009 10:37:51 PM

All else aside...

They're not *using* adjuvants in US flu vaccines (seasonal or H1N1).  A lot of the reason for this is because we are such sheep, so easily frightened by a few crackjobs who are going off on topics about which they really know nothing.  As a result of this, the ingredients used in swine flu are much, much more scarce than they ought to be.

Thanks to the US crackjobs and the fact that we're NOT using adjuvants, there is that much less of the swine flu vaccine left for the rest of the world.  We're not just sheep, we're greedy sheep.

Galadriel November 5th, 2009 11:21:53 PM

"They're not *using* adjuvants in US flu vaccines"  Not sure where you got that idea but at least one of the H1N1 formulations has arginine in it as an adjuvant.  At least one of the "thimerosal free" versions actually has thimerosal used in production and then it's removed (leaving trace amounts as noted in the manufacturer's disclosure).

I'm not anti-all-vaccines.  I'm anti refusal to make ready disclosure so all can make informed decisions.  I'm anti Sheeple just believing whatever they're fed in the sound bites.  I got all the childhood vaccinations then available, as did my son, but we were careful not to give them in jumbled soup format or when the reciever had even the sniffles back then too.  The one time I nearly didn't get my son vaccines was his last set and the doctors weren't wanting to give them because of "liability" fears so they wanted all kids to do their vaccines through health department clinics.  Line up, nurse shoots you up, out the door you go.  I coerced my doctor into giving them because I wasn't about to have my child given vaccines without exam, consultation, and informed consent and appropriate medical supervision by a physician.

As for personal anecdotes, I get a tetanus booster every 10 years.  I'm simply prepared for it to cause me to run a high fever for 2-3 days, minimum, and incapacitate me for several days along with about a 40% loss of use of the limb they inject it in.  I used to carry an Epi-pen and I'll probably start that again now that I'm back to being a ways from the hospital.  My body tends to over react to immune provocation (aka vaccines, especially ones with thimerosol and adjuvants).  I was coerced into some vaccines after my son was born because their test showed I didn't have immunity; so did the test AFTER the vaccinations.  It wasn't until then the doctor said "oh well, it happens sometimes, you probably are protected anyway".  And I was not told of that possibility prior to "consenting"? WHY?  He was quite flippant about it and THAT vaccine made me run a fever for days and feel like I'd been put on a torture wrack and pulled apart at the joints for a week.  Those were NOT the side effects I was warned of and they seriously interfered with my ability to care for my newborn child!  I've had the flu a couple of times since my teens.  It's always mild.  The risk of vaccines, especially new ones, is not worth the trade in my book.  If I had a child these days/when I have grandchildren, they will get vaccines but WE will be informed and careful in choosing them and timing them.

We discussed on here the hazards of home vaccinations for pets, of the potential problems for "drive through" or speedy vaccine clinics.  Much of that centered on the lack of a physical exam for the pet.  That really boils down to ensuring the patient is healthy enough to take the vaccines AND informed consent.  Where does that play into drive through H1N1 clinics manned by techs?  Where's the exam?  Where's the consultation?  Where's the ability to get the information from the physician so that one can even give informed consent?

PJB http://pjboosinger.viviti.com/ November 6th, 2009 05:35:33 AM

I'm getting the regular flu vax. I'm not getting the H1N1 vax because I strongly suspect I was already infected and because I'm not in a high risk group. My son is getting the H1N1 vax because he's in a high risk group (asthmatic middle-schooler). Even if he were not in a high-risk group, his age alone would recommend it to me.

I'm not one to fear the individual risks of vaccination over those to the population. I ascribe to the civic duty concept of immunization––though not blindly, of course. I prefer to play the one sheep in the herd role with respect to this vaccine because...

1) Its basic formulation is no different than that of the seasonal flu vaccine.

2) I trust my physician (almostimplicitly) and it's her recommendation that my son get the vax.

The media is off its rocker on this one. I have never been so disgusted with what plays out as a media story with respect to this particular vaccine. For example: Most of the MDs I've heard interviewed are marginalized individuals that in no way reflect the bulk of the medical community. Sometimes the "need for balance" is simply a ploy for controversy...and ratings.

Dr. Patty Khuly November 6th, 2009 06:17:10 AM

Lis, sorry to hear you are personally so susceptible to illness, I'd make s few suggestions, but you don't strike me as the receptive type. And if the vaccines are damaging your immune system, you are caught in a tangled web.

I have asthma. so getting flu is not a matter of a few days out of work for me. Generally speaking, as long as my asthma is under control, and I take reasonable, normal measures to avoid URIs and the worst of my allergy triggers, I'm quite healthy, and haven't missed a day of work due to illness in several years.

Your theory that the vacs are damaging my immune system is interesting, but unpersuasive, and while I'm open to plausible, useful suggestions, you are in the sad position of being the person who thinks that a blog whose next post is "WHO begins US coup d'etat" is a source worth citing. Yeah, you said you like the paper in the peer-reviewed journal better, but, seriously, you thought that blog post was worth linking to. If you had any critical thinking skills at all, you would have noticed that, rolled your eyes, and moved on--not saved the link to use to bolster your position.

I really would have thought the post the other day would have brought the extremists out of the closet...how amusing that it a post about a flu vaccine that does it. But then again, I really should not be surprised, after all when New Orleans was flooding and people were dying, others were looting stores for Tv's and sneakers...you never do know how the human brain will work.

Um. LorriM. You're comparing people who don't agree with you about vaccines to the Katrina looters. And no, don't say you're not. You just did it.

But if you really are willing just to take everything that the health care community and the government says as gospel, can I please borrow those rose colored glasses?

I don't take everything the health care community and the government say as gospel. I do, however, take what they say, when supported by real research conducted by real scientists whose field it is, and peer-reviewed by other scientists whose field it is, more seriously than what I'm told by Jenny McCarthy, actress, scientists (or, too often "scientists") who know nothing about the field they're opining on, or who are fringe nutcakes in the field with a long track record of their revelations never being borne out, and random people on the internet who think Black Helicopter conspiracy websites merit being cited alongside peer-reviewed scientific papers that don't say what the citer things they say.

Lis November 6th, 2009 07:15:05 AM

The idea that vaccines may do long term damage to our immune systems, and the evidence that they protect us from infection, are not mutually exclusive.  Both can be true.

Lis, I have an autoimmune problem that has many similarities to asthma (at least in terms of elevated IgE).  It doesn't have a name really, but the "imbalance" of my immune system is well documented, and caused me recurrent and nearly fatal pneumonias as a child (which I thankfully seemed to grow out of, but signs of the disregulation remain). 

The bottom line is, my immune system over-reacts, and in so doing, fails to mount an effective defense in some cases, and simultaneously makes me sicker by inducing certain over-reactions that have cascading consequences.

This doesn't interfere with my daily life, for the most part, but I know it's there.  I can't exercise without breaking out in hives.  Some autoimmunity.

Anyway, since I started getting annual vaccines, I have been MUCH healthier through the winter, with fewer respiratory infections.  That is a good thing.

Could the vaccines be subtly jacking up my immune system even more, enhancing its disregulation, even while they prevent me from getting infections in the short term?

It seems logical that this is possible.  But . . . . It's the choice I am making, on balance, to get the vaccines, and avoid the illnesses in the near term.

And I still can't get H1N1 yet!  Sigh!  I will as soon as I can!

Stefani November 6th, 2009 07:55:34 AM

Got H1N1?  Where's the horsemeat? <G>

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=16498195&ch=4226714&src=news 

PJB November 6th, 2009 02:23:37 PM

I think the statement I made about disease vectors has been misrepresented a bit - it was not an attempt at fear-mongering, but a plea for a little sensibility. The statement was actually more like "people will start irrationally fearing their cats are vectors for diseases if they take this too seriously" but I think I failed to get the subtle point across. There is no evidence to date that the virus will go from cats to people, and the following sentence in the report states just that. I was trying to convince people not to be afraid of their pets, for the simple reason that I am afraid they will make irrational decisions and start giving up their pets for no good reason. My intention was not to make the problem worse by making people think they could catch H1N1 form their cats and I apologize if this was the way that statment was interpreted.

Dr. Tony Johnson November 7th, 2009 11:28:08 AM

Two people in our house have just gotten over H1N1 - Sean, and myself. We both still feel under the weather, and I ended up with pneumonia, thanks to my asthma and lifelong hisory of URIs.

In spite of the fact that the two of us are virtual walking plague factories at the moment, none of our Frenchies have gotten sick, including our two senior French Bulldogs (one of whom is abou to turn 15).

As I'm sure Patty can confirm, Brachy dogs tend to be vulnerable to anything respiratory going around. If mine didn't catch this from us, I'm pretty sure most other dogs will be safe, as well.

Oh, and Petal the cat also seems fine and dandy.

FrogDog Blog

FrogDogz November 8th, 2009 10:10:23 AM

Dr. J: Don't stress it. I totally believe you. The media is responsible for lots of statement-twisting, fear-mongering here. As I mentioned in one of my comments above, I've been disgusted with the media's flu-hyping. Makes sense that ABC would find ways to make a catchy sound bite serve the hysteria that sells their stories. Sorry you got dragged into it.

Dr. Patty Khuly November 9th, 2009 05:48:38 AM

Better think seriously before you use an adjuvanted flu vaccine in anything other than a pandemic of a truly virulent virus. Using it in other cases is all about $$$. I think countries using the adjuvanted vaccines got snookered on this one. http://www.health.mil/dhb/downloads/20080527/AA%20DHB-04_23_08.pdf "DR. OXMAN: And I just wanted to make a comment on the issue of adjuvant, and it was focused a little bit more with talking with one of my good old friends at the FDA. If we're talking about pandemic vaccine, one shot save the world, that's one thing, but I know that the companies are interested in extending this to seasonal vaccine. There are really grave concerns about safety, including oncogenicity unrelated to virus, of any adjuvant that functions as a non-specific adjuvant, and, so, I think we really ought to make a distinction between worldwide emergency pandemic influenza vaccine and where the companies are going, and that is to spare anagen and, therefore, make more money and vaccinate more people with adjuvanted, annual vaccination, which I think there's no safety data whatsoever, and, to the best of my knowledge, none is being collected. DR. POLAND: Pierce? DR. GARDNER: Sir, just to follow-up on that concern, of course, the meeting we had at Naval Medical Center a half and a half ago, it seemed to me we heard presentations from many manufacturers, and many of those came away most impressed with what Flumist was doing at that time, and, of course, you get around all the adjuvant issues once you start using a live virus vaccine." http://www.health.mil/dhb/afeb/meeting/021704meeting/Transcript%20-%20February%2017%202004.pdf "So these mutations exist in the human population, they appear to be -- to influence the degree of severity that can accompany certain infections, but we have no information about whether they may be related to adverse response to adjuvants. So, I think what we need to do is to be aware that there can be variability in the human population in molecules that are receptors for components that might be included in vaccines and those individuals, although they may not be numerous, may respond differently to a vaccine component than the majority of people. And what is the percentage of people that would have these? For some of the mutations they are actually above one or two percent, up to several percent. For others, I think they are much more rare. So we're talking about rare events, but existent in the human population." Notice link between anti-Ro antibodies and squalene adjuvants below. If the risks are worth it to you, fine. One to several percent of the human population dying or getting an incurable autoimmune condition is NOT rare or worth the risk in my book unless there is a very dire threat. http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/NEJMoa0907650 http://content.nejm.org/cgi/data/NEJMoa0907650/DC1/1 http://www.anthrax.osd.mil/media/pdf/safetypanelQA.pdf http://www.autoimmune.com/GWSGen.html

Danforth November 10th, 2009 02:56:53 AM

November 10, 2009 The State Public Health Veterinarian for Oregon has confirmed three more H1N1-infected ferrets. According to the statement: "In late October 2009, a client presented to a veterinarian in the Roseburg area with 3 of 9 ferrets who had become ill with an influenza-like illness. The family had human patients with influenza-like illness about a week prior to the illness onset on the ferrets. Two of the 3 ferrets presented with fevers (temp >103F), sneezing , coughing and had nasal discharge. Not all ferrets became ill at the same time, but 2-3 days after the initial 2 cases. Nasal discharge samples were collected on Oct 27th and were later reported as positive for Influenza A. Further testing at NVSL confirmed the isolates as pandemic influenza H1N1. All 9 ferrets have recovered well."

3 confirmed but all 9 were sick.  2 weeks from sample collection to confirmation; 2 weeks of unknowns hanging out there...

PJB November 11th, 2009 05:10:11 AM

November 18, 2009 The Oregon state public health veterinarian has reported that a pet cat has died from presumed 2009 H1N1 influenza virus infection. The cat was one of 4 cats in the household and became ill approximately one week after a child in household had a flu-like illness. It developed labored breathing and was presented to a veterinarian on November 4. The cat was not coughing or sneezing but had pneumonia. The cat's condition deteriorated over the next 3 days, and it died on November 7. Samples were obtained and tested (PCR) positive for the 2009 H1N1 influenza virus. Additional samples were sent to the National Veterinary Services Laboratories (NVSL) for confirmation and are still pending. At this time this is a presumed, not confirmed, case of 2009 H1N1 influenza infection. The three other cats in the household also became ill with different degrees of sneezing and coughing, but recovered from their illnesses. Samples collected from these cats were negative for the 2009 H1N1 influenza virus.

November 17, 2009 A cat in Park City, Utah has become the second cat confirmed to be infected with the 2009 H1N1 virus. The cat's owner had previously been ill with the flu before the cat became ill. The cat was having trouble breathing and was taken to a veterinarian on November 3. A 'bedside' influenza test on November 6 detected the presence of type A influenza. Additional samples were sent to the Iowa State laboratory on November 9. A PCR test performed on the nasal swab was negative for 2009 H1N1 influenza, likely because the cat was no longer shedding the virus. The infection was serologically confirmed with a hemagglutination inhibition assay by the laboratory at Iowa State University on November 13.

PJB http://pjboosinger.viviti.com/ November 19th, 2009 07:57:22 AM