I should have saved this post topic for Valentine’s Day––or maybe not, considering it’s not exactly a romantic one. Still, it’s plenty appropriate for any time of the year if you consider that 1) pet overpopulation isn’t going away anytime soon and 2) some people remain impossibly clueless on the subject of sex and the single pet (hence #1).
In case you don’t completely understand the cluelessness I refer to here’s a question I received last week as part of PetMD’s Ask Our Experts feature:
Q: i have a dog and he is in adult hood already but has not comsummate yet with any dog ever. will that make him very aggresive the older he gets?
And here’s my answer:
A: Great question! Unneutered or unspayed (intact) dogs and cats will not become more aggressive if they are not sexually active. Indeed, lack of sexual activity is not considered a risk factor for aggression in any species––perhaps with the exception of humans and some non-human primates.
Depressingly agrammatical and typo-ridden as it was, the question succinctly revealed an all-too-pervasive sentiment: Pets are like people. They like sex, too. And when they can’t get it, they––like us––act out sometimes.
It’s a popular position, this “my pet needs sex” thing. And it can be tough to argue against such a powerfully anthropomorphic argument, but here’s how I try:
a) Dogs and cats are not like people when it comes to sex. They don’t cycle the same way and there’s no evidence, behaviorally or otherwise, that sexual activity brings them any specific pleasure akin to orgasm, for example.
b) While unneutered males of both species have a strong drive in the presence of females in heat (and sometimes any female conspecific), female dogs don’t come into heat but once every six months. And female cats are induced ovulators, meaning that once they’re bred (usually just that one time) they’re pregnant.
c) In fact, it’s effectively posited that if you’re to take the female dog and cat’s point of view to their anthropomorphic extreme, you’d be more than convinced that “tying” and barbed penises, respectively, do not recommend the sex act to any female of the canine or feline persuasion.
d) Sure, I’ll accept that males might get testy if they can’t get to their girls, but neutered males could care less. According to that argument all male dogs should be neutered––if for no better reason than because it serves their psychological health.
(I’m sure some of you have better answers and I’ll happily accept them in the comment section below.)
Yes, it’s sometimes frustrating to have to deal with people who want their pets to have sex. I mean, it’s a little creepy to deal with people who want their pets’ tubes tied or vasectomized just so they can have the pet version of “safe” sex. Both procedures I’ll actually do given a good enough reason, but sexual pleasure ain’t one of ‘em. I don’t know about you but pet owners who take their hedonistic view of pets to surgical extremes kinda give me the creeps, anyway.
Personal peccadillos aside, the bigger problem here is that people who get all weird about their pets’ sex lives are also the ones least likely to spay and neuter them. As in, “I won’t neuter him or spay her until s/he’s gotten it on at least once.”
Should these geniuses condescend to sterilize their pets at all, it’s not often because veterinarians like me have convinced them with our sterling arguments. Nor does the concept of pet overpopulation and their personal contribution to animal suffering move them towards enlightenment. It’s times like these I can’t help thinking the truism holds: A lack of basic sex education breeds overpopulation. And not just for pets.
Add Comment44 Comments
I think your standard-English-challenged* questioner may have been garbling what someone told her about it being a good idea to neuter her dog in order to forestall aggression.
Which is a whole 'nother can of worms.
I can see it now, though:
Diplomatic Neighbor (trying to kick snarling, humping Lhasa apso off her leg): You know, it seems that Sparky is frustrated. It must be tough not being able to satisfy his sex drive, and as he gets older he is going to get more cranky. It would be kind to him if you had him neutered.
SEC Pet Owner: OMG Sparky will be meen if he dont connsummat with other dog!
*IME, these individuals are never immigrants or people for whom English is a second language. They are always products of our fine educational system.
H. Houlahan December 1st, 2009 09:51:11 AM
I am still stuck at the question you were asked on PetMD , I just can't believe it !
How can some people be so stupid ?
DonnaMae December 1st, 2009 09:59:03 AM
"A lack of basic sex education breeds overpopulation. And not just for pets." ROTHL. I couldn't agree more!
Are there any animal studies on sex drive post ligation/vasectomy? This has come up a couple of times now and I'm sure my early cat boys were vasectomized but that had NO interest in OUR females who were tubal ligated. Makes me wonder if one or the other has to be capable of reproduction for the other to be "interested" or if many aren't interested after tubal ligation/vasectomy. Also wonder if it matters if the ligation/vasectomy is done before or after any consummation, which I know to have been the case with all of ours. (Try to give my lousy use of terminology.)
PJB http://pjboosinger.viviti.com/ December 1st, 2009 10:30:17 AM
I must be a bad mom because the sex life of my animals has never even crossed my radar. Of all the stupid things to worry about! Get you pet spayed/neutered and let nature take its course if it still can.
Carol December 1st, 2009 10:46:16 AM
Should be "get your pet" etc.
Carol December 1st, 2009 10:47:25 AM
How about guys who are convinced that neutering their male dog will make their pup "less of a man." Honest, have heard this more than once -- and from people who can spell, no less.
Moongirl December 1st, 2009 10:48:25 AM
Hardly surprising given how many people still think humping behavior is sexual, when usually it is just dominance. People can't be bothered to read a book and learn a little before having a child, much less getting a dog. I had a spayed female that humped EVERYTHING, ALL THE TIME. It was pretty funny, because when you peeled her off your leg, she kept humping like she was doing a belly dance. It wasn't sexual. It was amusing, but it wasn't sexual.
Now, when my Frenchie keeps stroking his penis with his front paw, I kinda wonder, even though he's neutered. But if it feels good, hey, what harm?
Susan Rosenau December 1st, 2009 10:50:43 AM
Can I just say, your blog has GRE words in it every day. Do you do that on purpose? I never hear/read these words anywhere else!
A December 1st, 2009 11:02:29 AM
We do have one friend that has a 7 year old male Flatcoated Retriever that is not altered. Reason being is that she lost a puppy due to an altering gone wrong; the dog was put under and never came to. For her sake, i guess I can understand her motives. Also, she has never bred her dog. Now this dog, Bo, routinely plays with our female altered Border/Flatcoated mix and has, to date, NEVER shown any aggression. For that matter, I have never seen the dog hump anything. Tina on the other hand will take to humping her bed if she gets bored.
EAB December 1st, 2009 11:12:08 AM
GRE words? I guess it's just a personal peccadillo. Hee hee. At least I can spell. Usually.
Dr. Patty Khuly December 1st, 2009 11:40:09 AM
H. Houlahan: That's brilliant. The SEC response made my day.
Dr. Patty Khuly December 1st, 2009 11:43:53 AM
SEC (Standard English Challenged) is also kinda funny because the states where SEC (Southeastern Conference) universities are found also have a higher percentage of problems related to lack of edumacation. (Not at these fine institutions, though:
UofAlabama
UofArkansas
Auburn (in Alabama)
UofFlorida
UofGeorgia
UofKentucky
Lousiana State U
Ole Miss
Miss State U
UofSouth Carolina
Uof Tennesee
Vanderbuilt
Gina Spadafori December 1st, 2009 12:07:36 PM
Yeah, I , too have friends who won't neuter their dog cause it would deny him his manhood...... these same people also let their dogs roam. They started out with 7 dogs, but the coyotes have killed several, a couple got caught in a leg trap used for fur, and one just dissapeared.... ya can't fix stupid...
agadoresmama December 1st, 2009 12:55:11 PM
I always go for the medical and cost-based angle in persuading people to get their pets neutered. Not so much of an issue with cats, people tend to understand the headaches of living with animals who will urine-mark their territory and/or wail and attempt escape for weeks on end.
As for dogs, there is the pyometra and prostate problems, plus any kind of tumour that is sex-hormone or sex-organ related. Not to mention the potential and costly complications of pregnancy and giving birth, or the roaming problems leading to preventable accidents...
I dunno, maybe it's also a cultural issue, but I don't feel like I have problems convincing people that their pocketbooks will ultimately suffer if they don't get their pet sterilised.
brebis noire December 1st, 2009 12:55:53 PM
My favorite encounter of this type was with a young man I was talking to in a park. He had a very unusual and beautiful dog - sort of a blue merle Chow type with a very nice disposition. He told me he was looking for a female to breed him to so 'he would get it out of his system."
"Tell me," I asked. "If you had sex just once, would that get it out of your system?"
Aha moment followed by a sheepish look :-)
He then told me that because his dog was so beautiful and nice that people had urged him to breed it. I explained that when you were dealing with random-bred dogs, they don't usually reproduce themselves because of the way genetics works. I think I gave him something to think about - he gave the impression of being a teachable person.
Linda H December 1st, 2009 01:08:04 PM
Dr. K., that was the exact question, that in reading yesterday's post, prompted my reply about needing to be taken with a grain of salt. Yes, it may very well be that the person was too repressed to use the word "mate" instead of "comsummate" (sp), and might actually be able to understand - and hopefully act - on the answer you gave. On the other hand, it could very well be a prime example of a goofball with a stupid sense of humor and too much time on their hands.
While I'd be willing to put my level of overall knowledge about many animals, especially dogs, up against 90% of the general population, as knowing more, so I'd give others the benefit of the doubt and want to help them, I'm glad it's you trying to do the job, because more than a dozen questions like that a day, and I'd have trouble not deleting them outright.
Sadly, my own brother, actually thought his dog needed to "get some, at least once." But then he's a complete moron. (I think my parents got both my brothers from a knock-off human baby store.)
KateH December 1st, 2009 02:11:58 PM
My neutered male cat thinks he can do the wild thing.
Let's just say that my female cat (also neutered) is unimpressed.
Me, I don't like waking up to a cat humping my leg.
Don't know if he 'ever got any' before he was fixed, but he's not getting any in my house, LOL!
2CatMom December 1st, 2009 02:39:05 PM
"spayed female that humped EVERYTHING, ALL THE TIME. It was pretty funny" That was my first Lab too and I wasn't going to put up with an 85 pounder humping humans so, at the suggestion of a friend, she was given a humpy doll and she would drag it all over the house. Sometimes she wanted privacy and sometimes she wanted to show off her mad humpin' skills. It was really funny. Even so, it's not nearly as funny as seeing my 20 pound Shiba hump my enormous Lab's back leg with no objections whatsoever, both smiling away. The Lab has long since accepted the Shiba as the alpha girl. All female humpers and all about the power. The new Lab/Shepherd not-yet-fixed female attempts to hump too. Matriarchal household :)
PJB December 1st, 2009 02:48:15 PM
Oh, and the only humping cat I've ever had/have is a neutered male who sustained brain damage as a kitten. The others (male and female) have always just let him make the effort and slink off to hide if it gets to be too much. And it's hysterical because he humps sidesaddle. Clearly an instinct gone wrong!
PJB December 1st, 2009 02:53:09 PM
It NEVER ceases to suprise me when people who are turning in unwanted litters (mostly little critters in these circumstances) thought that they wouldn't breed because they were brother/sister or mother/son etc. Helloooo incest is a social taboo- given the opportunity, animals breed!
Anne December 1st, 2009 04:37:29 PM
Disclaimer: I don't wish to fuel the "my dog needs to get some" school of logic, but I think some of your observations might be tainted by human culture and the need to suppress the sexuality of things that we find taboo to discuss in that way. I fear that any frank discussion invites too many unintended associations with human sexuality and thus shadows of zoophilia. Hoping to avoid that, and still make a point... I disagree with this observation: "there's no evidence, behaviorally or otherwise, that sexual activity brings them any specific pleasure akin to orgasm, for example." I've been in animal husbandry a long time and I have gotten the impression over the years that some animals very much enjoy sexual sensations, and even seek them out, even outside of "heat" stimuli. A spayed bitch with a hypersensitive vulva who would masturbate via rubbing, humping, presenting her rear, and even guiding a belly rubbing hand. This was not dominance, it was sexual gratification. Likewise, I've seen studs of many different species enjoy the "collection process" and make attempts to initiate that behavior even outside the presence of any females at all, let alone heat pheromone stimuli.
2.Cents.Worth December 1st, 2009 05:05:26 PM
I would have been baffled at the wording of that sentence. Do you often wonder if it is a prank?
Vets used to & perhaps some still do, say that neutering will curb or cure "aggression". I neutered one "dog aggressive" male & it had absolutely NO EFFECT, and I need to add---it did not curb his interest in "bitches in season" either.
We were also advised & followed the expert advice to neuter a Scottie male to "shrink his prostate"; again I need to say that didn't work either---'course he had TCC found later.
I am certain the benefits are many for both spay and neutering, but to expect particular changes may or may not happen.
On the flip side, spaying made no difference in temperament in my girls, but whelping sure made a difference in two---more protective & aggressive , but we kept offspring.
Barb A./NH December 1st, 2009 05:10:19 PM
This thread reminds me of a call I took yesterday at the clinic. A client specifically asked to speak to me, then cautioned me that she didn't want me to tell ANYONE that she had asked this question - she even said if she found out that I had, she would find a new vet! Her question? Would it hurt her chihuahua if he humped a doll every day? Since he's neutered, she was afraid it would cause some sort of internal damage. Other than cautioning her to limit opportunities, since the dog in question has had a perineal urethostomy recently, and needs a chance to heal, I told her it won't 'hurt' him at all. As to why he does it - who knows? And, no, I didn't tell anyone - except everyone on Doolittler!
Sassy December 1st, 2009 06:39:46 PM
Ooh, gosh, Sassy.... I hope she doesn't read this blog! :-))))))
Deanna December 1st, 2009 07:40:13 PM
OT: "dogs have tested positive for 2009 H1N1" and a Cheetah in a zoo too that seems to have been kept under the radar for a couple of weeks.
PJB http://pjboosinger.viviti.com/ December 1st, 2009 11:03:52 PM
From the female cat's point of view, being unaltered would seem to be a life of misery -- either constant estrus cycling or pregnancy and kittens. For the female dog, it's only two cycles per year, typically, and the rest of the time she is NOT interested. I have seen what an unaltered bitch out of season does when a clueless dog tries to jump her. It starts with a curled lip and a low growl. That can the dog a clue really quickly. He jumpe the opposite direction and made submissive gestures. That was a Northern breed to Northern breed interaction. With other breeds, there were major failures to communicate. It wasn't always clear that other breeds were really considered the same species.
Miss Kitty's Mom December 2nd, 2009 12:34:21 AM
I have an issue with getting told that neutering will reduce roming. I have had 3 male dogs now and the neutered one romed the most, by far. There is a much cheeper and safer alternative to neutering as birth control or behaivour modifacation, it's called a leash and training. I am tired of people telling me that my dog is the reason that there are unwanted pupies in the world. Neither of my male dogs have ever or will ever sire an unwanted litter. You know why, I pay attention. If you are to lazy to train your dog to come when called and walk on a leash and you don't have the time or ability to supervise their play well maby surgery is your only option. Sorry for the irritation expressed here but this discussion has a tendency to get under my skin.
Jacob L'Etoile December 2nd, 2009 06:54:56 AM
Jacob: I absolutely defend your right to keep your dogs unaltered (unless they are uncomfortably affected by diseases related to their alterable reproductive status). What I decry here is the ignorance that accompanies those who would allow their pets a sexual experience (for its own sake) at the expense of the overpopulation problem. Just that. No judgment of one individual's well-informed personal choice to keep their dogs intact.
Dr. Patty Khuly December 2nd, 2009 07:29:45 AM
PJB: That canine H1N1 report is being disputed. It comes out of China. 'Nuff said.
Dr. Patty Khuly December 2nd, 2009 07:31:35 AM
AVMA apparently thought it worthy of posting. Let me know when they disprove the results :)
PJB December 2nd, 2009 10:04:44 AM
PJB: It's funny how the AVMA handled this one. They posted it but didn't send out an alert like they did last time. Weird. They also qualified it by not calling it "confirmed." What's up with that? Lots of skepticism. I think that's appropriate.
Having said that I believe we'll eventually see this bug in dogs. It's a matter of time.
Dr. Patty Khuly December 2nd, 2009 11:24:34 AM
I noticed AVMA treated that one a bit differently but sometimes I think we're a little too dismissive of science from other countries. I don't mind getting the flu but I'm starting to wonder if they make masks for dogs and cats. Maybe a little spacesuit bubble helmet like the Jetson's dog :)
PJB December 2nd, 2009 11:41:04 AM
Dogs do not always (I will even say not even usually) hump out of "dominance" -- dogs can hump because they are overexcited and use it as an outlet, hump in play, frustration, etc. It's not always about the "D" word.
Carissa December 2nd, 2009 01:06:38 PM
I sure hope the writer of that question doesn't read this blog too. A person writes in and asks a question and s/he gets judged on their grammar and called stupid? Ever hear the saying "you don't know what you don't know?" They ask a question on a blog that invites questions of all kinds and instead of appreciating an opportunity to educate, they get ridiculed and put down on another "educational" blog. I am disappointed and a little shocked to say the least.
Faith December 2nd, 2009 03:32:00 PM
Actually, I DID have a neutered humping male cat. It was a source of great amusement to all of us, and I can't venture to say what exactly it meant.
He was probably the most loving and trusting cat I have ever known -- almost more doglike than catlike. He wanted to be on a lap or a shoulder at all times. And sometimes, he would climb on my chest and start purring and kneading and kneading and kneading...and eventually I would notice he was getting his hips in on the action and there was a little kitty erection, at which point I would peel him off me (does that make me a tease?) and I would joke in the presence of my husband, "when you learn to bring me drinks, you can have sex with me."
He wasn't that talented, but he was the most wonderful cat ever.
Susan Rosenau December 2nd, 2009 05:07:23 PM
Faith: You're right. I'm a little out of line. Mea culpa. But, in my defense, I'm seriously thinking it's almost impossible for that person to find us here. Needle in a haystack and all that. But, in principle, you are absolutely spot on.
Dr. Patty Khuly December 2nd, 2009 06:30:18 PM
To all those with humpy cats: I have never seen such a spectacle. (Nor do I think I need to.) Indeed, I might have considered it a fluke had not so many of you opined on this seemingly arcane point. I guess it's just like tail curls...unless you have a creature that engages in this kind of behavior you're unlikely to ever think about it too deeply.
Dr. Patty Khuly December 2nd, 2009 06:33:00 PM
A good friend of mine had a pet bunny for many years. He was neutered, but a few years ago he began humping her leg. She took him to the vet (for another reason) and was surprised to discover that he was intact. She swears up & down that he truly was neutered once upon a time. Has anyone else heard of something like this happening?
Posey December 2nd, 2009 08:27:42 PM
Hell yes, some neutered male cats still have sexual behavior -- if anything, I get the impression that more of them do than don't. I used to have one that would get it on with a pillow, but my present one prefers his sister (which earns him a hissing rejection) or me. He not only gets an erection, but ejaculates a tiny drop. One thing, though, I've never heard of a spayed female cat doing anything that could be interpreted as sexual. Anyone here have an example?
T,T. December 2nd, 2009 08:41:15 PM
I have a spayed female cat that I swear acts like she's in heat sometimes. Posturing and meowing. It doesn't happen often but it sure makes hubby and I look at each other and say, "Are you sure she got spayed?" (She did because I took her :0)
Faith December 2nd, 2009 11:51:28 PM
of course pets are having sex too just like humans.
oes tsetno December 3rd, 2009 01:54:19 AM
Like Faith's, my spayed female cat postures, back leg dancing too. butt in the air - up and down... She likes to have her butt scratched just above the tail. My neutered male who likes to hump also likes that spot tended. They have slightly different reactions but it is clearly in the eyes-glaze-over sex pleasure category. The girl tends to stay put and enjoy until she's had enough and then yowl and walk off to a nap while the boy squirms away with "stop, stop... wait, don't stop". We really should get our vid cameras out and do some youtube postings to dispel the myth that these behaviors stop with S/N.
PJB December 3rd, 2009 11:35:56 AM
I agree that people these days seem to be clueless about animal sexual behaviour. That seems to me to be because many have never seen an intact dog, or intact housecat. There is also a lot of animal rights influence driving the idea that pets are essentially the same as children. Obviously this is not the case, though one can observe valid similarities. That doesn't change the fact that pets are animals.
We have always s/n our housecats, because living with intact housecats is not really a viable option in our opinion. I have had intact dogs and s/n dogs, and will keep mine intact absent an actual medical reason to sterilize them. I have both sexes at present, and no puppies, because we keep bitches in heat separated from the dog, and we are obsessive about it. This is a nuisance for a few weeks a year, and I'd say that those who weren't willing to keep their bitches close and secure during those brief times should opt for male pet dogs. YMMV, of course, but other considerations aside, the surgical sterilization available to most of us damages the dogs' entire hormonal system, particularly when the dog is immature, and my experience has been that dogs are less tolerant of this than are, say, cats or horses. Just my opinion, of course.
Over the years I'd say most of the dog humpers I've known have been sterilized, but not all, and we have never owned one which seems a little odd. Perhaps that confirms the theory that the behaviour is entirely a matter of dominance, not sexuality. My male cat humps our female cat, which she tolerates on an armed truce level, but not all our male cats have been humpers, and I don't offhand recall a female humper in our crowd. We haven't any that would hump humans, but we've had sucklers. In my observation, all male animals masterbate, and it's hard not to conclude they do this because it gives them pleasure. I had a gelding (horse) once who would cover a mare, and this is not altogether unusual. Such geldings make good teaser horses for breeders. I do notice that though people are sterilizing almost all their pets, there are a lot more stallions around. I don't know how to explain this, but I'm not sure it's a wise trend.
One more thing. There may be regions where there is a pet over population, but I don't see it at all, and I live in a rural county where I would expect to see the signs if such a thing was an issue. In fifteen years I have seen one stray dog, and someone else must have beaten me to the phone to animal control; I only saw it once. I have seen a couple of 'escaped' dogs, that is, locally owned dogs usually correctly confined but briefly loose. We have feral cats, but we also have a TNR program locally, and fewer and fewer people let their cats roam. I agree with those who say it's not a pet over population problem, but a pet distribution problem. There are shelters which are importing dogs from PR and Mexico and even overseas to fill their pet availability. Surely it would be better to distribute dogs from overcrowded shelters to those which don't have enough dogs to fill the adoption requests than to import from unregulated areas.
Just some thoughts ...
Lynn December 4th, 2009 03:55:29 PM
e's Day gift,there are many new style product for new year,the most time select new year gifts unavoidable to choosep90x.com, designer clothe,cheap clothes online,wholesale clothes online,buy cheap clothes,mac cosmetics,cheap mac cosmetics,cheap gucci shoes,p90x,discount mac cosmetics,cheap replica handbags,cheap designer handbags,cheap coach handbags,replica handbags , etc,welcome order here and enjoy yourself.
p90xonsale February 8th, 2010 09:45:09 AM
Add Commment