Can you offer any information on the "do it yourself" puppymiller de-bark?  I find references to it scattered about the web, but no real veterinary information about what is done, what the damage is, long-term care considerations, how to determine that it has been done to an animal.

Unfortunately this is not just idle interest on my part.

H. Houlahan February 3rd, 2010 11:57:40 AM

I have a dog who has been vocal her whole life.  She used to make these grumbly-growly noises all the time; we called it "talking to the air molecules."  Now she just barks, and barks, and barks the whole time she's outside (and I use a doggy door when I'm home and awake)...at the eagles and falcons overhead, at the squirrels and birds in the trees, at the horses across the fence, at the dogs down the road (who she can't even see, but can hear barking occasionally), at the cars driving by outside of the fence...at the clouds in the sky...at the moon, stars, and the very darkness... I swear sometimes she's just barking defiance at the whole world.

I'm SO glad we live on a farm in the middle of nowhere.  I've walked to my various neighbors' houses and can't hear the barking from there.  It makes her so happy to holler at all these things, and as long as it's not bothering anyone, no big deal.  Funny old girl.

Galadriel February 3rd, 2010 12:00:10 PM

Owning two beagles, I can honestly say that training plays a big part in how much they vocalize.  We've trained them (well, still working on the 7 month old) that when we tell them to be quiet, they are quiet.  Their natural inclination is to vocalize (of course), but training can mitigate it to the point where it isn't really a huge issue.  Yes, when somebody is at the door, the whole neighbourhood knows - but except for playing or trying to get our attention because of an unmet need (dinner time/out of water/wants out), the older one (2.5 years) is quite quiet.

Greg February 3rd, 2010 12:05:32 PM

Dogs bark.  It's what they do!

Moxley could be a lot worse than he is.  Outside he only barks at the squirrels in the backyard.  (Considering that they throw things at him - I'm not kidding - it seems reasonable.)  Doesn't bark at the neighbor dogs at all.  (I suspect he thinks they are barking enough for all of them.)  When we go for walks, there isn't a peep out of him.

Inside is a bit of another story...  With the two kittens he has rediscovered his job of informing me of what they are up to - it goes something like this:

"MOOOOOOOOM, Carmen has a emery board and she's not supposed to have that!"

"MOOOOOOOOM, Lily is playing in a box!"

"MOOOOOOOOM, the girls are playing on the stairs and might get hurt!"

Fortunately I live in a single family home so the neighbors can't hear my little tattletale.

I also love it when he talks to me.  Not barking, a completely different vocalization that I can't describe in writing, but I am sure other dog owners understand.

I can't imagine my boy without his bark.

Cindy February 3rd, 2010 12:16:07 PM

Anyone that's read my input for any amount of time knows I think that this is a total no brainer.  Why the h*ll a reasonable human being would ever mutilate an animal out of convenience is beyond me.

My comment is more on the "experts" listed, self declaired as they may be.  I see political experts on the right and the left of the political arena.  I see automotive experts, computer experts, even experts about how we should live (Dr's. Laura and Phil to name two).  It is with these experts, as well as the animal experts mentioned in the story, that I encourage people to do something revolutionary in our world these days...THINK FOR YOURSELF!!!  If it sounds stupid, it probably is, even if the person saying it has an alphabet soup behind their name.  To say that a procedure, way of thinking, or process has more relavance purely because someone named "expert" said it is ridiculous.  Even the most educated and revered of people should be able to explain and justify their point of view.  If one of these talking head dismisses constructive conversation by just saying "In my expert opinion..." I walk away before the next word.  I suggest you do as well.

Debarking?  Please....

EAB February 3rd, 2010 12:23:18 PM

>>among vets the procedure is currently considered so outdated that no practicing colleague I know of will perform it>>

 Oh, I know of at least three, maybe four veterinarians in my area who will perform this procedure.  They've all been in practice for more than 20 years.  All are mixed practitioners.  All employ young associates.

I've seen a post-op train wreck (adhesions, gagging), because one of these veterinarians is a friendly acquaintance.  I was visiting the clinic and the veterinarian asked me what I thought.  I thought, what a mess.

Equine DVM February 3rd, 2010 12:35:14 PM

I like the one guy in the article that endorses and has most of his dogs debarked, but wouldn't leave his name because he didn't want to have to face activists.  Nothing like having confidence in your decisions, there, sparky....

EAB February 3rd, 2010 12:40:26 PM

EAB why does it surprise you that humans will do outrageous things for their own convenience?  I don't think it even matters how "reasonable" they are...it's in our DNA to do the easier thing.  50 years ago where people would walk 5 or 6 blocks to work they now drive.  Instead of cooking home cooked meals every night people eat out or use disgusting processed foods or t.v.dinners.  I agree with you though that this de-barking thing is well...dumb dogs bark.  But as long as people have these opprotunities to do these insane procedures theya re going to do them.  It's in our nature.

I will just say that i would NEVER have this done to one of my dogs. 

DNS83 February 3rd, 2010 12:42:43 PM

DNS83, I believe you are mistaken.  At no point in my writeup did I say I was surprised at what people do.  <GRIN>

Disappointed?  Perplexed? Yeah.  Surprised?  Nah.

Regards!

EAB February 3rd, 2010 01:25:25 PM

HH: I had no idea that was an issue. PM's doing their own back-alley deeds is not a surprise, though. Since you know more than we do, enlighten us! (As if we needed another reason to decry puppymill standards.)

Dr. Patty Khuly February 3rd, 2010 01:52:39 PM

From what I've heard, puppymillers will shove a sharp metal pipe down the dog's throat to sever the vocal cords and de-bark the dogs.  That's how an un-licensed mill keeps hundreds of dogs in a barn without being caught.  Absolutely sickening.

tara February 3rd, 2010 02:26:03 PM

I know nothing other than cryptic comments on anti-puppymill sites indicating that DIY debarking is done by shoving a pipe down the dog's throat.  No details.  I can understand why that might be the case.  Or is this lore?

Three of our organization's hoarder/puppymill rescues -- all older males -- have very deep, hoarse, raspy voices.  Not at all like a surgically de-barked dog, which is more like a creepy dry whisper, but not what one would expect from a dog of this basic size.  There may be more that we don't know about, whose adopters have not mentioned their voices.

One of these dogs seems to have scarring in his trachea.

Another one is one of my fosters.  He barks a LOT.  It doesn't bother me much, but I could see how he would be one of the ones singled out for an attempted de-barking.

Our group doesn't have the swag to do a lot of diagnostics on the other two.

I'd like to know what to look for, nevertheless.

H. Houlahan February 3rd, 2010 02:31:50 PM

I work part time at a big petstore.  Someone came in the other day asking about what he could do about his dog's barking.  I asked what kind of dog it was.  SHELTIE.  Um, shouldn't have got a sheltie maybe...........

Why, why, why do people only buy a dog based on it's looks? 

Had someone in class one time with a coton de tular.  It was constantly matted, they had no idea what it's coat would need when they bought it (yeah petland) and refused to clip it.  Poor little thing.

teri February 3rd, 2010 02:43:02 PM

Good point about a debarked dog having no way to warn about attacking. IMHO, when we (humans) try to control nature (our pets), often we are thwarted with unintended consequences of the animal trying to compensate...like my friend who insists on declawing her cats, but cannot understand why her cats will bite her harder and more often than they EVER clawed...duh - you take away their main defense, so of course they will resort to their other defense....

KC February 3rd, 2010 02:52:39 PM

EAB Why the h*ll a reasonable human being would ever mutilate an animal out of convenience is beyond me.

This was what I was talking about.  From the way you wrote this it was as if you were surprised. Not being nit picky I promise!

DNS83 February 3rd, 2010 03:52:28 PM

#1 It’s never been widely accepted (except by certain factions in the show dog arena) which makes it [socially] far easier to refute as a necessary procedure. Whhaatt?

I BEG your pardon? What show dogs are de-barked??? Not terriers?? In the show ring a bark is joy to one's ears???

It is joy to one's ears later in life, because "no bark, means no dog ...soon!"

Ahemm, maybe in a small lot city neighborhood where barking is not tolerated.

Me? Go ahead and BARK, BARK, Bark---because that is the reason I live where I live!

 My CATS HAD all their toenails---!

Barbara A./NH February 3rd, 2010 03:59:59 PM

No offense, but one should attend a dog show, if one thinks that "barking" does NOT happen.

I can't imagine a breed show where barking does not illustrate a dog that is: alive, alert, on their toes, and enjoying being there! (especially puppy class!!!!)

( and muffled cut vocal cords are a NO NO!)

Barb A./NH February 3rd, 2010 04:09:10 PM

Barb, it depends on the breed. When I was more involved in the breed (I did breed rescue for Northern California) I would guess that at least three-quarters of show Shelties were debarked. They went to one vet, a semi-retired old guy who did all the stuff younger vets refused to: Ear crops and debarks. (There was also another ver who was known for being able to get those Sheltie ear tips to fall "just right" in a way no show judge could detect.)

My own Sheltie Drew, raised as a show prospect who went oversized and was placed in a pet home (eventually ending up with me), was debarked before he joined my family.

I'd guess  the percentages are lower now on the debarks, but I would be surprised to find out that the majority of show Shelties are NOT debarked, even now. 

And for the record, Drew has never had a problem with his debark, nor have I. I wouldn't have had it done, but it doesn't seem to have done him any harm overall after recovery. The sound of his bark is something I got used to years ago.

Again, I want to point out the inconsistency of people who are aghast at the idea of convenience/cosmetic/behaviorial surgery on animals and want to ban it all -- but then turn around and want to FORCE all dogs and cats to be surgically sterilized. Folks who think declawing is horrendous mutilation and life-long suffering but that an oviohysterectomy is accomplished by the sprinkling of fair dust, with no negative long-term consequences to the individual animal.

When my retriever was spayed recently, she had it done by a boarded surgeon who also did a stomach tack to help prevent bloat. All pre-op, op and post-op precautions were taken, and pain meds were on board every step of the way. The decision to spay was made for her and her alone, since I am more than capable of preventing any of my dogs from having unplanned litters. (My male retriever is still intact, and amazingly, doesn't roam or cause trouble. It's called training, a fence and a leash. It works!)

I'm not holding my breath, but I would like to see the day when people make individual medicial decisions for their individual pets based on actual facts and consultation with a good veterinarian. And the actual fact is that any of the surgeries peple go nuts about are not as drastic as the oviohysterectomy we treat with the casualness of a nail trim.

Gina Spadafori February 3rd, 2010 07:42:03 PM

In general, I'd say this is another situation where a lot of people with no first hand experience whatsoever have vilified a practice based solely on their emotional response.

I am sure that if you scour the country you can find a few cases of dogs who have awful complications from being debarked.  I'm not talking about dogs who were debarked by some DIY jackass - those people should have metal pipes rammed down their own throats.

But the procedure as done by an experienced veterinarian is pretty slick and the dogs really DON'T seem to miss a beat.  No difficulty swallowing or anything like that - pain meds for a day or two to be sure they aren't uncomfortable but they seem to feel just fine.  Complications are extremely rare - in fact I had never heard of any complications until I read this article.  I would say it's likely that at least some (if not all) of the dogs with complications referred to in the article were NOT debarked by an experienced vet.

And best of all they are free to bark to their heart's content!!  In the past 25 years or so I've lived with a few debarked dogs - I was responsible for the surgery for one of them, the others were already debarked when I got them - and have cared for many, many debarked dogs as a pet sitter.  I don't know of one who isn't a happy dog.  But I do know many dogs who wear barking collars - whether electric or citronella - who ARE frustrated and stressed and unhappy.

In some cases, there just aren't any practical solutions to a compulsively barking dog.  Maybe the person shouldn't have acquired that breed or that dog in that circumstance... but that doesn't mean that the dog would be better off in another home rather than being debarked.  And we know that being "in another home" is a best-of-all-worlds outcome that just isn't always available.  The dog is INFINITELY better off being debarked by a qualified vet than he would be in a shelter!  That's my opinion anyway, but I'll bet if you asked the dog which he would prefer, he'd choose to have the surgery and stay in his home with the people he loves.

I am all for avoiding unnecessary medical procedures - but when all else fails and the owners can't keep a dog who barks too much, then I don't think that debarking is "unnecessary".  And if it's "cruel", then every surgery we subject our pets to is "cruel".  They all cause some level of discomfort and the pet doesn't understand why he had to go under the knife.  But it's so easy nowadays to control post-op pain that there is no excuse for an animal to be in pain after any surgery!

Barb February 3rd, 2010 09:19:30 PM

And I agree with Gina about the hypocrisy of people who would ban all "unnecessary" surgeries (i.e. any surgery that THEY feel is unnecessary, or is done for some other owner's convenience or sense of aesthetics) yet who would COMPEL all animals to be spayed or neutered.

The removal of a healthy uterus or a healthy pair of testicles is medically unnecessary, when you get down to it.   And it is done primarily for the convenience of the owner since no one disputes that it is easier to manage a sterilized pet than an intact one.  And both spays and castrations are among the most painful procedures you can do to an animal, with the exception of some major orthopedic procedures.

I'm not saying that we should stop spaying and neutering... I'm just saying that ALL medical procedures should be carefully thought out decisions made by an owner and the vet.   If we start banning medical procedures because someone else thinks they are unnecessary that leads down a very dark path in my opinion.

Barb February 3rd, 2010 09:40:27 PM

Barb- are there no limits then to what an owner may request done to their pet? Other countries have banned many surgeries that the United States still performs- in fact this type of debate is fast becoming a US issue.  I don't think we see much evidence of the United Kingdom or other countries going down a dark path- but I do suppose that depends on your opinion.  If you support surgeries like debarking, declawing, and docking, then those other countries have already fallen off that dark path.  But I don't think there's evidence that they've gone on to control other aspects of the animal's care.

I do agree on the forced spay/neuter- I think most people do have health issues in mind when they spay and neuter (I know I did), but we are now finding out the procedures may simply replace one set of possible medical issues with another.  The science used to seem so sure but now things are getting more cloudy on that front.

Chrissy February 3rd, 2010 10:19:39 PM

I have to agree with Gina about the show shelties.

Every debarked (by a veterinarian) dog that I've dealt with in the past ten years has been a sheltie that was a rehome from a show kennel.

One client had a debarked (the seller called it "soft barked" -- sorta like the dentist who wanted to do a root canal on me and refused to call it a root canal) sheltie bitch and a regular male sheltie.  The bitch would start that weird whisper bark of hers and get really ramped up running and spinning, and it would set off the male.  They lived in a condo, so this was a problem for their neighbors.  We had to address the bitch's behavior, not the male's.  Once she was under control, he stopped barking at everything.

I see more shelties in pet homes that were kept as show dogs and sold as adults than any other breed.  In fact, I can think of very few dogs of all other breeds that fit that profile -- one cocker (kid biter) one bullmastiff (owner biter) and one beardie (neglect case at show home, just needed some TLC) come to mind, but I can't think of any others.  Yet that seems to be about half of all the shelties I see, usually for shyness problems related to (a) being a sheltie and (b) living in a crate, seeing one middle-aged woman, and knowing nothing of the world, other kinds of people, or dogs that are not shelties.  And more than half of those have been debarked.

So I'm going to theorize that sheltie show breeders tend to keep way too many dogs, and debark them because of this.  It's not about barking in the ring, it's about having 20 shelties in the house.

Most of the ones I've seen were sold as young adults because they went oversized or their ears didn't do the nearly-impossible thing they are supposed to or their hair was not big enough.  So maybe sheltie show breeders keep a lot of "prospects" because of the way shelties are judged, and the difficulty of meeting their own standard.

H. Houlahan February 4th, 2010 08:30:22 AM

Houlie is right on the money on every single point. The "rule outs' for show Shelties -- ears, size, coat -- are really difficult to attain, so tbreeders do tend to "grow out" a lot of show prospects.

Drewbie is friendly, outgoing and not particulary yappy for a Sheltie, but he's just a nick over 16 inches at the shoulder. The show ring's dubious loss has been my definite gain, for many years now. He's a wonderful boy.

Gina Spadafori February 4th, 2010 10:01:46 AM

Would those breeders that tend to grow out a lot fo show prospects be considered "responsible breeders?"

EAB February 4th, 2010 12:53:42 PM

It seems to me that debarking is a phenomenon in the show dog world primarily because handlers/show kennels have neither the time nor the inclination to deal with barking with the number of dogs they handle/breed/show.  Hair - yes; conditioning - yes; powder/wiggies/eye liner/clown makeup/hair spray/hair dye - yes. But not that most doggiest of dog characteristics - barking.

IOW, it's truly not about the dogs....

Miki February 4th, 2010 01:16:33 PM

>>Would those breeders that tend to grow out a lot fo show prospects be considered "responsible breeders?"<<

EAB, they can be or they can not-be.  If "growing out" includes paying attention to the mental and social development of the pup as well as its physical characteristics, yes.  That means the pup receives some basic training and is taken out and about to get exposure to the world.  If the pup is left in a kennel run until it's done growing and then evaluated solely on its physical characteristics, then, no, I don't find that particularly responsible for a dog that may end up as a family pet.

If the breeder's priority is his/her show and breeding stock, then a grown-out dog who is felt to be unsuitable for those roles is better rehomed, IMO.  I used to think I'd never rehome a dog that I had brought into my life, and to date I have not.  I'm now in the "never say never" camp having seen pairings where both dog and human were miserable together yet the owner said "a dog is for its lifetime."

Judi February 4th, 2010 02:47:00 PM

I cant beleive you want to do that to cats or dogs.They say you treat your animals as you treat your kids/family.would you declaw or silence your child? its like cropping the ears or tails, would you amputate your childs toe or ear cuz its to long or defected? how would you like it done to you? you go get it done to urself then think about it a week or 2 before you want to redesigne your pets

Eva>mo February 4th, 2010 04:42:34 PM

For our dog Gussie, de-barking was lifesaving. Gus was a border collie mix.  He barked when the next-door neighbor turned on a light upstairs; he barked at  ladders, cars, anything. He had a big yard with a dog door into the house, an older dog to play with, and a human home most of the time.

Gus had been left to die in hot sun when he was a month old, and we adopted him from our vet after that. He was never the sharpest knife in the drawer & did not excel at training.  All the same, we had helped to save the little guy, so we tried the electric collars. He yelped from the shock and went right on barking. I finally found someone to do the  (expensive) surgery.

Gus had to be put down last June at the age of 11 when his diiabetes couldn't be managed at home. That was 10 more years than he would have had without the operation. If he saw something that needed to be barked at, like a squirrel, he'd alert the other dog who was happy to do the honors.

De-barking should not be a matter of convenience without trying to train, or before even taking the puppy home.  All our other dogs have learned to cool it--easier when there's an older dog to learn from. But Gussie, as an abused stray, just couldn't, and the surgery let him have a good (quiet) life for years after.

jbecker February 4th, 2010 08:17:30 PM

Maybe I'm overtired, but I'm having a rather odd line of thinking about this.  If anyone remembers the upset over twisty cats several years ago- it was a new "breed" of cats that were had severe defects in the forelegs.  The legs twisted back over the body, forcing the animal to sit upright on its hindlegs.  The breeder said she thought they would make excellent pets for people who wanted the animal confined to the backyard because they were too crippled to jump over fences.  Or who just wanted a cat that couldn't jump on counters. 

My little blind guy is the best cat ever, but he's also a huge pain in the rear.  He chases the other cats, can't ever be left unsupervised because of the binds he gets himself into, and just generally makes life interesting.  I often joke that the only thing that makes him an acceptable housepet is that he's blind.  If he could see he would find even more ways to try and kill himself and the other cats. 

At what point does modifying an animal to make it easier for humans to live with become unacceptable? Spaying and neutering do convey some health benefits, though the jury may still be out on exactly how much.  Debarking and declawing don't give health benefits- unless you are counting staying in a home as a health benefit.  But if we can modify them in such ways- why not breed twisty cats? Why wouldn't it be acceptable to remove the eyes of a crazy young cat to keep him more controllable? The argument always goes better modified than dead (and I'm not saying it isn't a valid point of view), but where's the line?

Chrissy February 4th, 2010 11:23:33 PM

Can anyone tell me where to get this done in the Pittsburgh area? The vets I called acted like I was the worst human being, but the other option is breaking my daughters heart by telling her that we have to get rid of the dog that was her birthday present and a part of our family for 4 years.  However, after 4 years of trying everything, noting has worked and the neighbor is calling police

Steve February 5th, 2010 07:25:54 AM

Steve, can you explain just what you mean be "after 4 years of trying everything?"

I'm not saying you haven't tried, just wonder what you have tried to see if there's something else to be suggested to you.

KateH February 5th, 2010 12:20:49 PM

Things that make loud noise, countless muzzles, obedience training at local kennel, 3 different types of bark collars, and so much yelling that our grandaughter thought the dogs name was "Buddy Hush"

Steve February 18th, 2010 08:26:55 AM

The last time I was at a major dog show will be the last time I ever go. A fan of herding breeds, it broke my heart to see all the Lassie look-alikes that had no voice, only a harsh whisper. I have a rough collie and yes, she barks, and she is not the brightest bulb, but she also knows the word "quiet".

I also have a Pomeranian, a retired show dog who is, you guessed it, de-barked. She does, however, have a lively little voice which, while not full-strength, allows her to make herselve heard. I am told this may be the result of a partial de-bark (?) procedure.

I am also acquainted with shelties that are de-barked and yes, these are retired show dogs too. Somehow this leads me to believe that breeders are the leading practitioners of debarking. Maybe de-barking show dogs is more prominent among certain breeds, but it certainly seems to be a widely used practise.

I have only one pet dog (a beagle) that was never a show dog but was de-barked. It was so the owners could leave her tethered in the yard all day when they were at work and she couldn't cry out and disturb the neighbours. The reason she was tethered all day is that they had never successfully potty trained her. I never understood why they had a dog that they didn't care to spend time doing even basic training. 

Maybe there are circumstances where de-barking is a last resort, and I can appreciate that. However in my experience, it appears that more often than not it's either a business practise or simply a convenience.

Deb February 18th, 2010 12:22:35 PM

Steve, it sounds like you've done a lot of things that are meant to stop a behavior after it starts.  I'm not trying to say you shouldn't have done this, but I'm wondering if you could take the opposite tack - rewarding the dog when he's NOT barking, instead.  Getting the dog to associate his being quiet with good things - positive attention, ex. petting, quiet praise, and treats - is something that many people don't try.  Humans say "No" far more often - and far faster - than they say "Yes" to their dogs.  If the dog barks, removing your positive attention and treats - just removing yourself without saying or doing anything physical to the dog - is a good way to make sure you aren't rewarding the dog with attention (even 'bad' attention is sought out if that's what the dog gets more often than 'good' attention), or escalating the situation with sounds yourself. 

Many dogs that seem to be compulsive barkers don't get enough exercise, either.  Is there a way to increase the exercise the dog gets?  That will mean a human, whether it's an adult (most likely necessary as kids cannot be held accountable the same way as the adult to said 'yes' to bringing the dog home in the first place) or the child getting up earlier to walk or do some kind of play to make the dog tired before people leave him alone during the day.  Leaving a dog with something to do - puzzles/toys that make them use their brains will actually tire dogs out too.  Sadly, many people will spend more money on aversive things, like muzzles, shock/training collars, etc., but won't spend much, if anything, on something that is thought to be a reward, like a puzzle or toy.  We know that giving a kid a coloring book and crayons will allow them to DO something and be quiet(er) when we're doing something else.  Trying the same thing with dogs often achieves similar results. 

Lastly, if the dog is barking when people aren't home, the dog is likely exhibiting seperation anxiety behaviors that could be helped with a bit of medical assistance - yes, I mean anti- anxiety medication.  Finding a vet who would try that course of treatment will, hopefully, be easier than finding a vet who will do the debarking surgery.

Please comment again if any of these ideas would or would not be something you'd try. 

KateH February 20th, 2010 05:11:13 PM

EAB....few who don't show would hold them if not to be sure they would pass muster!  Size DQ's and bites don't really show up til well over 6 months old......SERIOUS responsible breeders don't GUESS when they have a litter because they don't usually have a bunch of litters and they get EXPENSIVE to have and hold and few are going to make a dollar off of them, they do want to get them in the right HOMES though! with CONTRACTS to N/S at the appropriate age!

That being said I just spent $1800+ to crop ears on a half dozen.  The vet was "new to me" (no I knew them but hadn't used them before but had seen their work!).  I drove 7 hours to get there, paid $100 for motel, then other expenses.  I think I'm going to love them and yet even that vet who doesn't apparently do lots of entire litters was worried about pain meds, etc.  You know, if its just ONE PUP and you act like it should hurt...they may HURT but if its all of them, and you separate them for the first time with a paper plate COLLAR they don't even notice it.  They don't notice when you touch the ears.....they are YOUNG and SILLY (no 12 weeks old and that is getting scary for me! like to do 9 weekish?) but it depends on the anesthetic! and what age the vet is good with to comprehend the CORRECT way its to look in the end!

These pups are fine, don't hurt, look at the pill for pain and say nah.....don't need it and haven't missed a beat!.....like a kid with a skinned knee....if it still works they go PLy....if someone tells them it hurts they stop and whine.....sorry....I'm not cruel and they know it, I'm just "DAD" and am honest with them!

John Galt March 5th, 2010 06:17:22 PM

MIKI, no doubt many who handle don't want to hear it and I've noticed my breed with some of them don't act as they should! MY DOGS SHOW and are well known for it in my breed!  but I think you are wrong in your opinion!

JOHN GALT March 5th, 2010 06:20:44 PM