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A veterinary blog for pet lovers, vet voyeurs and the medically curious...
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VIRTUAL VET HOSPITAL
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Posted by: ColbyWolf
5/01/08
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So. I adopted a kitty a bit back. The previous owner had semi abandoned her (that is to say, he let her out and moved away. to be fair, I think he's always lived in rural areas with outside cats... and it didn't occur to him that it might not be the best thing for her.) but a friend of mine took her in, then passed her on to us. We took her to the vet after about a month or so of having her with us, to get her vaccinations and set up a spay and such.
We expressed concern at this time because our little girl (weighing about 6.5 lbs) looked like a little beachball. She was about 9 months old at the time. We thought she could be pregnant, but were assured, after some abdominal palpitation, that she was not. we were penciled in for a spay roughly a month later.
About 1 month later, we had 7 kittens under our bed.
Question 1) At that state of development, with so many fetuses, should the vet have been able to feel the kittens and tell us that she was pregnant?
He said that he would have been able to. Didn't offer to do an ultra sound or anything. We even discussed, before he felt her belly, what we would do if she WAS pregnant, and the whole room agreed: If she was preggers, we would spay her anyway, because there are too many kittens in the world anyway.
... Did he do us wrong?
only 4 of the kittens survived birth, but that's still a lot of deworming and vaccinations, for a family who thought long and hard before taking in one cat in need, due to the financial implications.
So, we have 5 cats...
The kittens are about 8 weeks old now.
2) When is the real, ideal age to give them away? Is there a point that is 'too long'?
3) I've read a webpage decrying the practice of trimming cat claws... because it messes up their perceptions of how far they need to hold in their claws, etc. Now, this kinda makes sense to me. They're kittens. they're learning about the world around them and how their physical bodies work. In the last week and a half they've gone from "Hey! cool! I can climb up on the bed!" to running laps around the room that include a quick hup-heave-ho onto of the bed and it's sleeping inhabitents. Would trimming their claws do damage to their developing physical skills? I'm also worried about their claws splintering or something if I trim them and they try to leap up onto the bed. However, at the same time, my legs are starting to look like a scratching post from where they're trying to play with ME every time I walk through the room without protective gear.
4) In that same regard, They have their own litter box that I empty just as much as I do momma kitty's (about once a week, more often if things become offensive)... I have thought about cleaning more frequently, but I would THINK that if they learn to deal with dirty litter boxes while kittens, they'd be less likely to develop litter box issues later in life if they come into the hands of an owner who doesn't scoop every day. Truth? or am I unknowingly abusing my furbabies?
5) Likewise, so far, I have fed them several different types of food so far in their short dry-food eating life. Will this help them gain more tolerance towards not turning nose up to whatever they are fed? they don't seem to have any sort of digestional distress. Except momma who is a gassy cat at the best of times. :P
6) When do they start to learn bite/scratch inhibition? how much of this do *I* have to teach them? I don't want to bark at them for trying to play with me, they don't understand that i don't have a protective layer of fur to deflect blows.
Sorry if this isn't quite the best forum for these questions, But I don't feel quite comfortable taking a long list of questions to my vet's office just yet. They tend to be very busy people and I've been considering trying to find another vet. but my current is the best that I've found in the area. if nothing else, his was the only practice who discouraged declawing. (I made it a point to ask each vet's office their stance on the operation when I was shopping around. I couldn't hang up quickly enough with the lady who recommended I do all four paws at once because they 'learn to use them back claws if you don't.")
Thanks for your time :)
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For now, I'll address the vet question: Should he have known? Personally, I'll never guess when pressed--but I'm a wimp. If I can't feel 'em it might be because there's a lot of fluid surrounding the fetuses, thereby obscuring the palpation of individual animal bodies in there. I might've taken an X-ray if I had no ultrasound. But then again, I might not have--X-rays don't show babies until 45 days or so (it wouldnt have helped you anyway). My take is spay 'em SOON, just in case.
In the vet's defense, I'm sure he felt no babies. And at thirty days, usually you can. But it's always a crapshoot, in my experience. Then again, maybe I'm just no good at it--I need expensive tools if I'm going to stake five kittens on it.
<<I have thought about cleaning more frequently, but I would THINK that if they learn to deal with dirty litter boxes while kittens, they'd be less likely to develop litter box issues later in life if they come into the hands of an owner who doesn't scoop every day. Truth? or am I unknowingly abusing my furbabies?>>
you are abusing your furbabies and leading to litterbox issues not discouraging them. One top of it, you are risking their health by exposure to possible worm eggs, other parasites to say little of the ammonia which can burn their delicate pads and fumes that can make them sick
how would you like to go in a toilet that didn't get flushed for a couple of days??
<<I have fed them several different types of food so far in their short dry-food eating life. Will this help them gain more tolerance towards not turning nose up to whatever they are fed? >>
nope, you are encouraging finickiness unless you are mixing up the brands of food.
<<I've read a webpage decrying the practice of trimming cat claws... because it messes up their perceptions of how far they need to hold in their claws, etc>>
the earlier you learn to trim their nails, the better they usually are about it later in life. But use baby clippers and because quicks can be hard to see in tiny little baby nails.
<<When is the real, ideal age to give them away? Is there a point that is 'too long>>
the ideal age is 8-12 weeks when they no longer nurse and eat completely on their own...
is there an age that is too long? depends on how attached you become, and kittens usually are more easily adopted.
And thank you for giving me a straight answer about that. My vet clinic has 2 doctors.. one's older, the other muchyounger... the younger one was the one feeling her belly (and she was definetly showing too.. She currently weighs--two months after giving birth, one ounce less then she did at her prior appointment. and she's had free reign of food from the moment she gave birth to now. (before we were limiting her food due to the fact that we thought she was just getting fat... which I kinda feel bad about. Makes me wonder if those other 3 kittens would have lived if we hadn't) Anyway, when I took the kittens in for their initial deworming, the older doc jsut dismissed it all like "no, he couldn't have felt anything then, too soon." and I kinda got the feeling that he was just brushing it aside so that he wouldn't be obligated at all to do anything to help us out financially with our kittens. Not that I think that he SHOULD have to.. but after being told "She's not pregnant. We should beable to get her spayed in about a month... " as opposed to "She might be, if you're sure you want to abort the kittens, bring her in next week..." *shrugs* I dunno.
Thank you again.
Lorri - Thank you for you time...
Concerning the litterbox: Like I said, I change thigns before it gets offensive, or too bad off. they have a reasonably large litterbox all to themselves (mom doesn't use it. I think it's too shallow for her tastes), At the end of a week, there is a small collection of burried poop (which is still so small it mostly falls out of the scooper when I scoop, and in the bottom, there is very little urine soaked clay. the top layer mostly still looks like it was jsut poured out of the bag. I feel like I'm wasting litter, honestly.
They've gotten each set of shots, deworming and flea treatments on schedual, and the box it's self is in an open, well ventilated area right next to my bed and it has no oder at all. The litter has also been changed after each vet visit, just in case.
Perhaps I'm getting a bit defensive, but it seems to me like you're thinking my kittens are standing in a box that is as much waste as it is litter... the boxes are relatively clean. but I'm not scooping every time one of them start pawing around in the box.
as for unflushed toilets... I make it a point actually to not flush frequently myself. our water bill normally isn't too much, but with the cost of vaccinating, deworming, and carring for 5 cats, every little bit helps. right now, I'm jsut praying I can get the future new owners to agree to get them spayed/fixed, and keep them indoors, so I don't have to pay to get it all done myself.
I know that that wasn't quite the responce you were looking for, but that's the truth on the matter too.
Concerning food: How is it encouraging finickiness? I have been changing brands of food and feeding both wet and dry, and mixing the both as well. I'm not just buying Salmon flavored one day and chicken the next :P They've had about 4 different brands of food, 2 wet, 2 dry. (Special Kitty Adult kibble once or twice, special kitty kitten kibble, meow mix kitten kibble, friskies "special supper" wet food, and some other brand of wet food in two different flavors. I dont' remember which brand it was though.
Concerning nail trimming - I've made it a point to hold them, restrain them, rub their bellies, manipulate their paws, fondle their ears, run the shower and cuddle them standing next to it (so they won't fear the sound), and am working on introducing water as a fun thing to them, so that if they ever NEED a bath (yes, cats are self cleaning... 3 of my 4 kittens are long hairs, my husband has allergies, my best friend has allergies, and I'm an artist and a bit of a cook and while I certantly PLAN to keep them far away from anything that they shouldn't be into, I do not want my arms flayed open because I try to give Fluffy a bath after she knocked over my paints. Non toxic or no, that's still not something that needs to be digested...) ... basically, I'm doing everything I can to get them used to being handled in all the 'uncomfortable' ways we humans want to handle them... I'm more concerned about hurting their development, or causing injury to claws.
Concerning too long: I'm already attached :) That's why they're being given away to people who are close to me in real life who I can trust to care for kitties. And why I've dismissed several other people who expressed interest in my cats. (You cannot have my gray kitten because she would 'match your male gray kitty'. You cannot have my black and gray kitty because she looks "just like caesar!" who is "declawed and all that good stuff")
I really just want to do the best I can for them.. and the internet is unfortunatly full of conflicting advice at the best of times.. again, sorry if I seem defensive or anything. Even a good parent can get that way if you tell them that what they're doing is wrong, because they were so hoping that they were doing 'the best thing'.
I second the response regarding the litter box - little ones probably need it changed more frequently, not less.
Regarding the abdominal palpation, I agree that it really can be a crapshoot unless they are very close to delivering, and I've seen just as many wrong guesses from vets as right ones.
I also agree that 8-16 weeks seems best to adopt out kittens, as long as they are weaned and doing well. I'd err on the side of giving them away later vs. earlier, though, if you're not worried about someone wanting "a cute baby one"...they seem to be better socialized the more time they spend w/littermates and mom. And there's no reason why you can't start trimming nails now - it'll get them used to it. Regular human clippers are sometimes easier to use on baby nails as long as the clippers are sharp.
Regarding #6, I've found that if you keep claws trimmed and provide scratching posts, most kittens will grow out of their (natural) phase of scratching and biting. If it persists as the kitten gets older, then I'd deal w/it they way you would any behavioral problem: firm correction at the time of the infraction, followed by a redirection of attention towards something they are allowed to bite or scratch.
Hope this helps! If you're wondering credentials, I've been working for veterinarians for the last several years, have done a TON of trap/neuter/return and feral kitten socialization/adoptions.
litterboxes need frequent scooping and changing...it's just how it is....if you don't want to waste litter, use less and dump more often.
dirty litterboxes lead to elimination issues as well as health problems. I can't emphasis that enough. It really is important.
Special kitty food is a waste of money and not good for your cats. and certainly doesn't have the nutritional value needed for a nursing mom and growing kittens. What you spend on food now will save you vet bills in the future. If you must by a grocery store brand, then at least buy purina one. But a premium food is a better choice all around. grocery store canned food is also crap. and is probably the cause of mom's gastrointestinal distress.
art supplies and cats do not mix. I am an artist and my art supplies and my cats are on different levels of my house. Things that are non toxic to humans are not always non toxic to cats.
give the kittens something to climb on/in....even a cardboard box they can claw to play on and test their little dagger nails on.
I know you didn't plan or prepare to be a "grandma"....if you can't find good information on kitten raising on the internet that isn't conflicting, then perhapes you can get some good information from a 4 h group, a local shelter, a different vet, or a library book.
I do and have done private cat rescue for a very long time (25+ years) and I know it is expensive and there are many unforseen circumstances. So it is not that I am unsympathetic but fact is that 90% of cats in shelters are killed due to lack of homes, and you are starting some habits that could lead to the try of behaviors that lead people to dump cats in shelters and few ever make it back out alive.
And no, it's not particularly high quality food, but my husband is a bit of a money pincher, and walmart isn't exactly the best place to find high quality food. :/ And since he does most of the shopping...
However, I'll try to convince him that the more expensive fod will be better on the prinipal that they'll eat less, now that they're really tearing through the dry food with a vengance.
Mom's eating the same thing as the kittens--She's still nursing them (though not as much) and until I'm certain she's done, I'm not going to try to enforce seperate foods on them...I'll probably swap her back over to the adult stuff once she gets spayed
As for food rotation. part of it has been "the kittens need food, please pick up food for the kittens" "but I"m not going to walmart"... the wetfood has been, woefully, whatever's cheapest. and not too much of it. Just to help transition them.
I'll see what I can do about the litter box then.
it jsut irks me a little, how definetly the vet said she wasn't pregnant. he gave me poor information. i THINK his exact quote was that if it has happened in the last 2 weeks, he wouldn't beable to tell, but if it had happened longer ago then that, then he would. ...which.. is.. bull, if I'm not mistaken.
None of the people who'll be getting kittens are overly concerned about gettign cutefuzzywuzzies, I think. :)
I'll clip their nails tommorow before I head out for the day then. :) my kitty claw scissors are probably sharper then my human claw clippers, so I'll use those. :) they're far newer.
And it's good to know that they'll grow out of it without too much intervention on my part. I understand that it's a natural phase. just wonder how long it lasts and if I should invest in chaps. ;)
Lorri - I have no problems with scooping and changing. just the litter isn't very dirty at all. right now, despite frequent scooping, mom's box needs a change. especially because one of my fluffies has been insisting on crawling in there to use the box. but the littlelitterbox is quite neat and tidy looking still. Maybe they're eliminating under the dresser and I don't know it and that's why the box looks so... unpoopy and unpeed in?
The food theyr'e being fed claims to be for a nursing mom and kittens. it's certaintly better then the adult one. I jsut bought a sack of that 2 days before she had her kittens (because everyone needs a huge bag of catfood they can't use sitting around..)
I live kind of out in the middle of no where and my resources are rather limited. I'm currently loose money every month after gas, and all the bills are factored in. I'll be in dept officially in about a year at my current rate. I've cut back on everything I can to lower my bills, and am almost eating rice for every meal. In an ideal world, I would feed all of my cats a raw diet, specially formulated for their needs, parts bought from the local farmers... but I need to eat too.
Mom's had gas since we got her. The canned food was only used for a short time to help the kittens adjust to eating dry food. Mom would love it if I gave her canned food for every meal, but see above note about me needing to eat too.
I'll try to find something better for her, or find some store online with free shipping...
I cna't keep my art supplies on a different level of my house. I am a poor, newly wed 24 year old. I am living in a single wide trailer with my husband on his grandfather's land. there is a chicken farm down the road and the next door neighbor has more nonworking cars then working cars in his front yard. their brokeleg bitch is the mother to the packs of semiferal mutts in the area. We're far enough out of city limits that no one can do anything about said pack of mutts. Those mutts are one of the reasons that my cats will NEVER be outside cats (I wouldn't have anyway, but that's one more reason.)
At best, I can clsoe up me and my art supplies in a single room.. but right now, we don't have a sinlge room that's off limits able. I keep everything up out of reach, in sealed plastic containers... and I will either seal myself off in a room, or seal the cats off in a room when I set to work... but we ALL know that acidents happen. Cat slips in beween your legs, phone rings and the door doesn't close fully behind you, a sound pulls you out of the room with enough haste that closing the door isn't as important as seeing what that sound was.. etc etc.. I don't exactly plan to let my kitties taste test all of my art supplies, but accidents happen.
kitty jumps onto the counter, knocks the oil over onto herself. Kitty splashes out into the muddy yard after bolting out the door for fun. etc etc. if my roomate's little girl decides that the docile kitty cat needs to take a bath because she's been underthe dusty bed, I don't want my kitties to freak out and flay her arms open because she tried to put them in water. her parents would scold her and tell her that she's not supposed to mess with the cats, and place no blame on me, but I don't want it to happen.
The kittens do have things they can climb on. I think they just prefer me. ^^;
The internet is a wonderful resource, but the problem is, everyone has an opinio, posts abot their opinion and someone else has a completly different opinion.. ther'es a general consencous sometimes, but some answers arn't easy to find. But then the problem is still the same with real people: everyone hasw an opinion....and thinks theirs is best. even two books would work the same way. And even when places agree, they don't always go into enough detail. It took me far too long easier to find a single webpage that detailed the exact location of where or how to scruff a cat (and even then I' m still not sure about it) (and no, it's not that I want to abuse scruffing my cats :P but there are points--like when my little tiger boy has somehow managed to slide under the blankets with me, cuddled up with my knee.. giving it a few sweet little licks (while I'm there 9/10ths asleep going 'aww.. kitten love... mmm...') before suddenly sinking his claws into me and biting me--where I'd liek to beable to disengage the kitty from what it's doing, move it without it struggling much to a better place (in this case, out of my knee, ontop of the covers, to sit on the bed next to me, to be gently held and stroked for a few moments, before being put on the floor.)
my kittens won't be sent to a shelter. I'm giving on to a good friend, the other to my husband's aunt. in bothcases, I wil ltell them that if they ever want to get rid of them, that they can give them back to me. As well as the stipulatio that they can be indoors only, fixed and never declawed unless there was no other options. tha'ts nto an excuse, but I'm jsut saying. I'm not giving my kittens out to any random joe who wants one. several of my other friends have expressed a want and I've told them no because I dont' trust their cat parenting skills.
but realy, the litter box isn't that dirty, and I'll scoop it more frequently. and maybe see if they've got a hidden pooping ground somewhere.
though I'm still honestly a bit confused as to how letting them be used t a dirtier litter box will force them to be litterbox picky later... I understand the health implications, which are arguement enough, but the logistics of it baffle me. I'll trust experience, but... y'know?