Vet School 101 How to handle fighting dogs (in 400 words or less)

August 22nd, 2008  

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Dog parks and leashes don't mix, in my experience.

If the park is empty and two dogs enter, then sure, letting them sniff each other out on leash seems fine. But the usual scenario in our dog park is that one or more dogs are already running around off-leash. Uncertain owners sometimes bring their skittish dogs inside, still on-leash, and that inevitably stresses out the leashed animal.

I've seen dogs on-leash exhibit fear aggression towards the other park dogs, but as soon as the owners are persuaded by the park regulars to unleash their dog, everything is fine.

The ideal case is when a park has a separate fenced area (sometimes for smaller dogs) where unsocialized animals can meet the park dogs through the barrier, but without the sense of confinement of a leash.

Liza August 22nd, 2008 10:30:00 AM

I'm lucky to have small dogs in my house. When I got an an adolescent male min pin he and the adult rat terrier would get into some scraps. They weren't out for blood however, it was mostly a noisy spat. However, in trying to break them up I was bitten more than once, bad enough to realize why people say don't stick your hand into the middle of a fight. Very good advice.

But because they are small, grabbing one from behind and whisking him into another room works. though the danger for redirection is there, but they are my dogs, my risk.

In Brenda Aloff's "Aggression in Dogs" she relays a story about a bloody fight between her terriers that could only be broken up by dumping them in the bath tub.

Esmee August 22nd, 2008 10:45:00 AM

I'm a little dissappointed in your article- while keeping your own body out of is indeed the best advice that can be given, you don't say much that will help with focused dogs who have decided to scrap. A minor, no-blood, growl and spit tiff can often be broken up by pulling one dog away, a little water, or a loud noise like you mentioned. A 'real' fight however, where the dogs are into it and neither wants to give in, won't be stopped by any of these measures.

In those situations you need two people to grab tails or leashes and haul the dogs away, a handy pool to dump them both in, or a a chair or chunk of plywood to shove between them, etc. Usually this takes temporarily squishing one of the dogs until they release. In these cases a hose would just make them wet fighting dogs, and a broomhandle would bitten and ignored unless you were actually beating them with it. I've separated my two GSDs with some hard kicks to the nearest one before and it's not the safest measure, and I worried about their ribs and my leg, but when you're in the middle of a grass field by yourself with 135lbs of fighting dogs and blood, there's not many options. I'd rather get bitten on the leg if it comes to it. I need my hands to work.

While you can definitely get bitten during a dogfight, I've only ever seen it in 'accidental' cases, ie someone sticks their hands in there and grabs some part of one of the dogs. How common do you think it is for dogs to actually re-direct and start going after the person as it seems like you're suggesting?

lindabcs August 22nd, 2008 11:18:00 AM

I'm sorry you got grief about not recommending neutering as a "fix" (sorry about the pun!) Sure, sometimes it does help but all too often it's just the lazy way out - people do it INSTEAD of the training and behavior modification that is really needed. All of us in the pet industry can name dozens of altered animals who are aggressive.
Recently, a friend of mine with a VERY sweet and social 18 month old, intact male Dane was denied access to a Dane fun day because her dog wasn't altered. The reason? Because there were several neutered dogs there who were known to be aggressive toward intact males!!

Barb August 22nd, 2008 11:24:00 AM

Lindabes - good question! There are lots of anecdotal accounts of fighting dogs "redirecting" to the humans trying to break them up, but I've never seen this happen either. I wonder how many of those are actually people who got accidentally bitten and didn't realize or understand that the dog didn't know what/who it was biting?

Barb August 22nd, 2008 12:49:00 PM

from own experience, grabbing your OWN dog's hind legs (as in grabbing a wheelbarrow) is the best way to remove a dog from fighting. they will let go. it's best that the other dog's owner does the same at the same time. throwing a blanket on top of two dogs fighting works as well.

a leash in a dog park!? bad idea. dogs who are not neutered tend to be more aggressive or scrappy in a dog park.

if your dog shows any sign of being dog aggressive, just stay away from any dog park. period.

lola smiles August 22nd, 2008 03:35:00 PM

Barb and LindaBCS,

I have seen fighting dogs redirect and it is not pretty! Perhaps sticking your hand in works for you with your own dogs, or maybe you're just really lucky, or excellent at reading strange dogs, but not everyone will be. I think it would have been irresponsible for Dr. Khuly to recommend this in her column, because I don't think the average dog owner is that knowledgeable, strong, or forgiving if he or she is bitten.

Also, I took this article as "what can I do while my dogs are fighting - during that specific moment" not "What are some long term solutions or preventatives for fighting." I can't really picture anyone grabbing their dog by the leash, throwing it in the car, and rushing to their vet "Doc, you gotta neuter my dog NOW, he was just in a fight!" Sure, some mention of neutering would have been great, but I don't think you deserve any of the vitriol you're getting for leaving it out.

Tara August 22nd, 2008 07:09:00 PM

The trainers at the dog school I went to saw leashed encounters as potentially dangerous, so I would second (or third) the hesitation to have dogs meet on leash at a dog park. What the trainers said is that dogs often pull on the leash, creating a body posture that looks aggressive to another dog. In a dog park with plenty of space, it seems safer to let dogs avoid each other.

Arlene August 22nd, 2008 08:16:00 PM

I knew a gal who did pit bull rescue. She kept a cattle prod that she used to break up dog fights if necessary.

We have on occasion used a hose with a strong spra-nozzle. Fortunately it has worked for us when needed.

I was bitten pretty badly one time when I did what I've told people never to do - I reached my hand down to try to grab a collar of a dog in a fight. That was my fault, not the dog's fault. The dog didn't know what it was biting - she was trying to bite the other dog and got me by accident.

With all due respect, I have not found vets to be very helpful to owners looking for help with dogs that fight. Most reports I've heard, the vet simply says to put one of the dogs down. I do think neutering makes a big difference and should have been mentioned - although in my experience it's the female dogs that are the worst fighters, spayed or not.

Mary August 22nd, 2008 09:47:00 PM

Neutering can help, but it's far from a cure-all - I'm sorry you got slammed for not mentioning it. I would have liked to see a bit more about how to be proactive (wheelbarrow method, etc) than you had the space to above.

I'd also like to say Nyah! to the people who think that lal intact dogs are monsters. My Malcolm is one of the MOST polite dogs you'll ever meet at a dog park, and yes, he's intact. He's gentle with puppies, he plays appropriately with dogs of all sizes, and he's in general an ideal dog park dog. That said? He's the first intact male that I've had that I *WOULD* take to the dog park- the othre two did not attend after they hit maturity. (Although Jester's was more with his mulberry addiction issues than DA.)

Cait August 22nd, 2008 10:17:00 PM

In my small world of limited experience, with my own dogs.... first, my guys are trained and taught that aggressive behaviour is not tolerated by me, their alpha. THANK YOU CESAR MILLAN. Second- you have to understand dog body language and be able to read your dogs. Rarely do fights just pop up out of the blue...they have been brewing for some time usually. Thirdly- my boys both react well to a stern NO, and DROP IT. Beaner, my pittie, has stopped mid-tiff when yelled at. And when all else fails, I grab the hind legs of my dog, if handy. If not, I have grabbed the other dog's back end and dragged 'em apart. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, I am right there to correct and manage the situation. The clue is to stop them before they happen, and IF they happen, immediately intercede and make it known that aggressive behaviour is not acceptable. BTW call it dumb luck, but I have never been bitten by my dogs or anyone else's when doing this....so I can't say anything about redirected aggressiveness.

agadoresmama August 22nd, 2008 10:23:00 PM

Two decades of rescue, training, breeding and also having good friends whose husbands run hound packs and boar dogs means I've seen and helped break up a lot of squabbles.

What to do in the moment, well alcoholic whatever, like vodka, in a spray bottle helps, it is such a strong smell, taste and of course it stings. But that means you are in a situation where you have access to it.

The hind leg approach can work but if there is only one person it's not such a great idea as having the other dog climbing over or up you is not real desirable.

I used a yellow pages once. First to try to wedge between them, when that didn't work the sound and impact of it hitting them repeatedly on the head broke it up. Whiffle bats make a lot of noise without doing much harm.

And of course it all depends on the type of fight. Two dogs face fighting, lot's of loud snarling and facial blows, may be a good way to get bit reaching in but is often not life and death for the dogs. These fights break up often with loud noises or a rake or water.

One or more dogs trying to kill another dog that is not really fighting but defending it's self will often respond to water, noise , wiffle bat, large metal dog bowl. The dominant dogs that is. The dog geting torn up is often so freaked out that he is the one who will go after you when the others let up.

If it is a blow up misdirected aggression brawl happening with totally out of control dogs who have no pack sense and do not acknowledge anyone as a leader, that is scary. And interfering is best done at a distance as they will come after people. It's not misdirection at that point. If dogs are so out of control that they have no sense of pack order, they will turn on people because in their minds, people have no status and how dare they interupt! My feelings with this sort of fight is that you will have to use any means at hand to try to break it up but you are at greatest risk in these kinds of situations.

One of the most serious sorts of fights as far as the dogs are concerned is unlikely to happen at a dog park. It usually involves two dogs who know each other well and have come to some form of mutual decision that There Can Be Only One. These fights are quiet and ugly, there is little snarling, just total determination to kill each other. there is little danger to a person breaking up such a fight, but the problem is prying them off each other. Collars twisted to the point of near asphyxiation is about it. Dogs in this sort of mode really don't seem to care about pain, noise etc.. And if it lasted more than a minute someone is going to the vet.

As far as neutering... I used to take my show dogs to a local dog park to stretch their legs. I had to stop because I had dogs attacked on two occasions. Some would say that my dogs pheremones etc.. started it but the attackers were in both instances obnoxious brats. The well socialized, well trained dogs present, intact or no, had no issues with each other. If I ever saw one of my dogs getting pushy, a well placed verbal cue told them I was watching and knock it off please.

The spay neuter mantra gets old when it is held up as a cure-all. It's not. For someone with no interest in breeding or high drive canine training, S/N is a good choice. But it does NOT take the place of solid training and socialization. We get dogs in rescue all the time who are altered and the owners have no clue why that didn't solve all their problems.

JenniferJ August 22nd, 2008 11:34:00 PM

Neutering is not a cure-all, my neutered dog is very aggressive towards other dogs and never sets foot in a dog park, it would not be appropriate. I believe he must have missed some critical early socialization, and he has learned some self-control on cue from me, but neutering certainly didn't solve his issues.

However, it must be said that 70% of dog bites come from intact male dogs. There IS some correlation between aggression and intact dogs, like it or not. If your dog is friendly and well mannered and intact, that's wonderful but if you have a dog prone to aggression, neutering may be one of the steps you can take, in addition to training and management.

Thanks for a great discussion and all the suggestions. Clearly 400 words is not enough!

Anne August 23rd, 2008 01:10:00 AM

If you can get past the training-video sales pitch and read the information on the website there is some interesting and useful information to be had at:

http://leerburg.com/dogfight.htm

Shellie August 23rd, 2008 05:39:00 AM

>>>However, it must be said that 70% of dog bites come from intact male dogs. There IS some correlation between aggression and intact dogs, like it or not. If your dog is friendly and well mannered and intact, that's wonderful but if you have a dog prone to aggression, neutering may be one of the steps you can take, in addition to training and management.<<<

I've looked for the source of this statistic and from what I can tell it is highly questionable and it has to do with a study of serious dog attacks. The problem is, you should not automatically assume correlation is causation. The kind of people who like having macho dogs, encourage them to be aggressive, and let them run loose are also people who don't alter their dogs. Studies that actually look at the results of altering do not show the same correlation. The only type of aggression that seems to be altered in male dogs is dog to dog aggression - not aggression towards people. Altering bitches shows a clearer statistic and it increases aggression towards poeple, http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposium%20Docs/Duffy2.pdf

Linda H August 23rd, 2008 09:22:00 PM

Redirected aggression during a fight isn't about pack status. The dog is simply in a fight mode and is overstimulated. Sometimes it is "if you can't bite the one you want, bite the one you're with" because they are there. Nothing more.

Remember that dogs are a fight or flight animal and if someone else jumps into the fight, to them it is another enemy in that moment they feel the need to protect themselves from. Bite first and ask questions later might also be their mantra for that particular moment.

400 words isn't enough but it was a good try.

For people in the extreme bad luck to be in the position of one dog on leash and one dog loose you can try ting the leash dog to something and grab the back legs of the loose dog to pull it off the leashed dog. Not an ideal situation but it may be an only option for someone someday. Keep it in mind. Heaven forbid you ever need to attempt it.

Not all dogs who fight with other dogs are intact. Many times it is about lack of socialization or canine communication skills. Or a tussle that gets out of hand if one dog decides not to back down. Matching dog play styles can also be an issue if you do the dog park thing. (which I do not, I only let my dogs play with other well known dogs with similar playstyles for safety of everyone involved)

The statistic of biting dogs being intact males I believe refers to dogs that have bitten people. Completely different than dog on dog aggression.

Marie August 23rd, 2008 10:03:00 PM

Dogs that redirect do so in the heat of the moment because they feel something making contact. They do not realize what they are biting. It has no ties to anything "dominance" related. Also, neutering will help with fights because OTHER dogs can respond aggressively to an unfixed dog. Your intact dog may be the sweetest on earth but that smell can set off bells inside other dogs' heads. If it's other dogs who are causing trouble with yours, it may still be an issue of hormones. Usually I've seen fixed dogs express this through aggressive humping, pinning, or getting into T position (muzzle on back of other dog).

If there are two strange dogs fighting hopefully there are two owners. Grab both dogs by the hindquarters, lift off the ground, and move dogs in a circle and away from each other. This has to be done in one fluid motion. A dog that tries to whip around and get you in this position will just fall over. If there is one person, s/he can grab the dog who is on the offensive and drag it into another room. Or if you are skilled enough, you can make a slip loop out of your leash around the hip area and clip one of the dogs to something and drag the other away.

With all due respect, this is a topic which isn't quite in the vet's realm of expertise...

Nena August 24th, 2008 06:08:00 PM

I would just like to add to the leash comments, and that often dogs who are kept on leashes become more aggressive then if they were left to interact on their own. One of my golden retrievers, who is normally very friendly will growl when meeting other dogs if she is close to me, especially on a leash. I think that she is being protective, and does not like the other dog to get too close to me. In this case I am part of the problem, and if I was not there she would be just fine meeting the other dog.

I also believe that it is important for owners to realize just how crucial prober socialization of their dogs can be. They need to learn how to interact with other dogs, otherwise they may have many aggressive encounters, since they may not know how to great other dogs properly.

Mary August 25th, 2008 10:17:00 AM

I would much rather introduce dogs off-leash than on leash, especially if I am a bit uncertain of how well they will get along. It is very common for dogs to act more aggressively on a leash than off. The leash seems to provide some security and the dog feels more confident and dominant because its owner is there backing him up. The dog may be protective of its owner, though I suspect possessiveness and jealousy is more often the case. Leashes interfere with the natural greeting behavior of dogs. Even when leashed dogs are interacting nicely, sniffing butts and sudden spins can easily tangle leashes, which can spark a fight between dogs that don't know each other well. One option is to leave the leash on, but not hold on to it. The leashes are much less likely to tangle

Once a friend and I were allowing our dogs to interact on leash. A sudden spin apparently brushed the snap of one leash up againt the collar of the other dog resulting in one leash being attached to both collars! Fortunately the dogs knew each other well, but it was still difficult getting them to hold still long enough to detach the leash! Imagine what could have happened if a sixty lb Airedale and and 85 lb Giant Schnauzer who were strangers to each other had gotten into this fix.

To be honest, I often allow my dog to say hello to other dogs on leash, but I know my dog and only allow it if he shows no tension about the other dog - and the other dogs body language is friendly as well.

Linda H August 25th, 2008 02:39:00 PM

I have to add my two pennies to the leash discussion--it's a good one. I debated adding a disclaimer on leash issues in dog park settings along the lines of your above comments (against leashes on first interactions), but I decided that...

1) There's a leash law in my area
2) Dog parks are not as common around here as in other parts of the country and
3) The average dog owner is often too darn ignorant to trust with an off-leash suggestion.

I may be wrong with #3 but it scares me to give my local dog owners any off-leash ammunition. Now go ahead, excoriate me on that one. I can take it.

Dr. Patty Khuly August 26th, 2008 09:57:00 AM

"It is very common for dogs to act more aggressively on a leash than off. The leash seems to provide some security and the dog feels more confident and dominant because its owner is there backing him up. The dog may be protective of its owner, though I suspect possessiveness and jealousy is more often the case."

Linda H I respectfully disagree. I believe the dog feels LESS confident and more threatened on a leash because 1 of his 2 responses - Fight or Flight - has been taken away, in this case, flight. In this stressed state he does what works - fights or puts on a display to make the threat (the other dog) go away. Most of the time when someone has a leash reactive dog and they put on the threat display (growling, lunging) what happens? The owner removes the dog from the situation, in effect the dog believe what it has done has worked... and quite simply dogs are looking out for number one, and do what works for them, so you better believe they'll try it again next time. Also known as Leash Reactivity or Leash Aggression. I don't think anthropomorphizing the situation with notions of 'jealousy' (or even 'dominance' which is a theory I'm falling more and more away from every day) helps the dog in the end. Counter-conditioning is what can help in a situation of Leash Aggression. I think we use things like "Oh, he's just jealous" or "Oh, he's dominant" or "Oh, he's just mad because of such and such" too often and they don't help the situation get solved... we see and hear those excuses every day, don't we?

Carissa August 26th, 2008 10:35:00 AM

Hmm, another approach is to be a 270 pound human male. My approach to a dog fight is to jump in the middle with both legs kicking, if its serious. I've required stitches twice, but luckily its not something that happens too often. (My own dogs are small, I'm not around large dogs that often). This isn't the most sensible approach I know - last fight a couple of years ago the rottie dumped me on my tail by yanking my leg out from under me. But, again, sometimes you have to end things fast, and hands are too fragile to get into the middle of fighting dogs.

The comment about if not being able to bite what you want to, so you bite what you are with, made me laugh out loud. I have an adorable blue and gold macaw, Harley, who was never well socialized. (Working on it, but he's 15+ years old, stubborn, and its slow going). Thats his motto. If he can't reach who or what he wants to bite, he bites me instead. I love him to death, but I worry mightily about what will happen to him when I'm gone, if I can't cure this.

Richard Lyon August 31st, 2008 07:33:00 PM

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