I get lots of mail on the subject of finding a new vet. Some pet owners have already decided that they need to switch to a different veterinary professional either because they’re moving out of town, require an in-city vet closer to them, or simply because they’re fed up with their last doc.
Ever since I started writing my Miami Herald column a year and a half ago this kind of mail began reaching me in a slow but steady trickle. New clients began making more appointments for “second opinions,” apparently assuming that someone who writes a column in the paper must be a great vet.
Sometimes these correspondents are simply looking for someone to take care of their new puppy—or they’ve just recently moved to town and don’t have friends or family to provide a referral. But the majority is simply dissatisfied with their current veterinarian and hopes to make a permanent change.
Truth be told, I’m never too comfortable with this. I hate feeling that I might be responsible for “breaking up” a relationship, even if I’m just the innocent “other woman” who showed up well after the fall from grace. Yet somehow, it still always feels like the divorce is my fault.
That’s partly why I counsel these clients and correspondents to reconsider their decision to terminate the relationship—much more so if I know their previous veterinarian is a good one. Frequently, the problem is a simple series of miscommunications—and I’m often in a position to play arbiter better than most.
Nonetheless, sometimes it’s clear the relationship deserves to die. It’s these times I have no qualms when it comes to just keeping my mouth shut and accepting the newbie client into the fold. Here, I present you with their top ten reasons for killing the love for good:
1-Lying
Lying about your pet’s condition, adverse medical event, complication…it’s all grounds for divorce.
2-Cheating
Finding out-of-line charges on your bill? Catch wind of who really performed your pet’s surgery? Did you confront the powers-that-be and not get proper satisfaction? Be fair. Listen to their side. But if it’s a chronic problem you should probably call it quits.
3-Talking out of school
Disclosing your pet’s sensitive case to your friends and family without your permission can be devastating. I’m soooo careful about this one in my blogging (I change names, dates, breeds, gender…everything). But I do worry—and I have cause to. I’ve crossed the line before so I’m especially sensitive to this now. (Sometimes asking permission IS better than begging for forgiveness.)
4-Too expensive
We all know what we can afford and what we can’t. If you can’t handle the fancy practice prices there are ways to find more moderately-priced practices with philosophies that work with yours. It’s hard work and you may have to drive further but it can be done.
5-Emotional distress
Sometimes the pain of euthanasia and the grieving process means you just can’t go back—not for now, anyway. We get it. You’re hurting. It’s OK to switch vets even if it’s just for a little while.
6-Feeling talked down to?
Some docs just don’t get it. They treat you like a babe in the woods. I know this from my personal experience with human clinicians and I can’t abide it. Neither should you.
7-It’s just not “clicking”
Sometimes the mojo, the je ne sais quoi, just isn’t there.
8-Explain, please…
Vets who don’t elaborate or who speak exclusively in medicalese (when you don’t) must sometimes be prompted to explain themselves. Sometimes it’s OK (specialists tend to get more of a pass) but if it’s a chronic problem (in spite of your entreaties) and you’re the kind of person who needs to understand the case well, break it off before you get frustrated.
9-Choices?
You deserve to be offered a range of options for every condition (from specialist care to less expensive alternatives). If you don’t feel you’re getting the full range and that bothers you, you should squeak like a needy wheel. If the lack of alternatives persists, despite your insistence, you need another vet.
10-It all comes down to trust
And if it ain't there... ‘Nuff said.
Got some more reasons? I’m sure you do. Offer ‘em up…
Dolittler
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Hmmm. None of those are in my top ten. I once went to work for a vet practice that I felt strongly was a wonderful place with caring, qualified staff.
Then, once I was employed there. I saw how things were run. I eventually stopped taking my animals there for anything but routine care (vaccines, frontline) because of the things I saw there. I'm sorry this is going to be so long, but my experience took away my blind trust in vets in general.
My concerns are:
1. Safety.
Many of the wire cages (the stacked kind with wire fronts) were broken, with pieces of wire sticking out. Kennel staff often put dogs in the cages with their collars still on, including choke-type training collars. If a dog got his collar caught on one of those wires, he could choke (especially if he had a choke collar on). When I pointed out the problem both to the owner and the kennel manager, nothing was done. Also, a dog could get a leg or paw caught under one of those broken wires.
Dogs were bathed in a raised porcelain bathtub, which staff encouraged dogs to jump in and out of, onto a slippery tile floor. Including geriatric dogs. I also saw dogs tied into the tub using one of those slip leashes, while staff walked away. If the dog tried to jump out, it could hang or break it's neck.
Dogs, whether patients or boarders, were left in their cages from 4:30 in the afternoon until at least 7:00 in the morning, with no additional walks or check-ins. That's at least 14.5 hrs of 'holding it" - or not. So soiled cages were very common. Also, I did not like that patients were left that long without any check-in. Some were obviously o.k. for overnight, but some I worried about. As a weekend kennel worker, I sometimes found trouble in the morning, like the dog who was left after a neuter without an e-collar on, who chewed his stitches overnight and who I found swollen and bleeding in the morning.
2. Carelessness
Dogs brought in for boarding come with a file and a form that shows medications and special needs. Staff often didn't bother to read this form. Sometimes medications were missed. Special diets brought in by owners were often not given. Not much of a problem, unless the reason for the special diet was a medical problem such as severe food allergies. Try explaining to an owner in tears, who has just realized that none of the special diet she brought in has been fed, what happened. The dog had severe food allergies, which has just been straightening out with the special diet.
Flea checks for incoming animals were often just not done.
Some staff would let an animal out of the cage with no leash on, and let them walk loose around the practice. There was one constantly opening and closing door between the inside of the practice and a busy road.
The owner would occasionally bring is own, slightly dog aggressive dog off-leash into the practice, where it would bark threateningly at the patients, including patients that were locked in cages. Once memorable time, I was walking a 120 lb Leonberger (sp?) outside the practice on a potty break, when the owners off-leash dog charged the Leonberger. If the Leonberger had reacted, things could have been very, very bad.
3. Generally poor practice management that affects the health of patients
One morning I was working in reception, and realized, after an owner's question about her dogs medication, that no medication has been given to any animal in the hospital all day, because the techs were confused about who's job it was that day. There was not a good system in place to deal with staff absences (the usual tech who did the meds was out that day).
Vet techs, and staff in general, were very overworked and wages were quite lot. This lead to exhaustion in some staff, which lead to frayed tempers, mistakes, and high turnover.
4. Inappropriate physicality with patients
I witnessed a veterinarian hit a patient, hard. It was the same dog I mentioned above that has chewed it's stitches. I had called a vet in, he was trying to put things back together, while the dog kept trying to reach the wound and chew. The vet lost his temper and smacked the dog.
Staff would occasionally decide to 'train' boarders who were staying there. Their method of training involved physicality I wasn't very comfortable with, including smacking on the nose and physically forcing dogs into positions (i.e. 'sit').
I witnessed rougher treatment of patients 'in the back' than would ever occur in front of the owners. I don't want to make the people who did it sound like monsters, I think the exhaustion and frustration the staff were experiencing were factors in this occurring.
5. Lack of concern for human health and safety
I saw things that would probably make an OSHA person go wild. The practice had a crematory.
General trash generated by the practice was burned in this crematory (not just medical waste). Plastics, synthetic materials, paper, just about anything that would burn. Burning of trash is illegal in my state. A staff person handled the burning of the trash, and removed the toxic ashes with no gloves or respirator for protection. So this woman was inhaling fine particles of burned plastics etc. several days a week. Animals were not burned at the same time as the trash was burned, but they were placed inside plastic garbage bags, and the garbage bags were burned at the same time as the bodies of the animals. So when patients collected the ashed and sprinkled them, they were unknowingly also sprinkling particles of burned plastic trash bag.
All of this toxic burning occurred in a crematory with a short smoke stack, so the smoke washed over the parking lot and nearby houses.
This practice is AHAA certified. After working there, I don't know if I will ever feel 100% trust in a veterinary practice again. A patient sees what's on the surface of a practice, but how can we really know what goes on unless we work there?
FarmFashion September 8th, 2008 12:26:00 PM
We had a wonderful vet, but his front office staff became a deal breaker. Between poor service, scheduling SNAFUs (scheduled appointments no longer being on the books upon arrival), poor communication, poor attitudes and a high turnover over three years we had had enough. Despite how well we regarded the vet, it wasn't worth the headache of his support staff to see him. I do regret not speaking with our vet about the reason we left and never returned.
Our vet/practice of 7+ years is totally different. The entire staff is great, turnover is very low and the few concerns have been addressed and resolved in short order.
Halle September 8th, 2008 12:40:00 PM
The vet my parents used to use backhanded our Cocker across the face once right there in the exam room (the dog snapped at him while having a painful knee examined). Unacceptable. Period. Buh-bye.
I have been working with dogs either in a kennel situation or as a vet tech for... 8 years now? I've worked with a lot of dogs. I've worked with a lot of uncooperative dogs. I have had a fair few dogs take shots at me, and a couple actually connected. And not once, not a single time, have I ever felt the need to hit a dog.
Respect for clients is a hot button for me, and along with that goes reporting bloodwork results in a timely manner and returning phonecalls. Yes, I know vets are busy. So is everybody else. If it's a chronic problem, I'll find somebody else who can better meet my needs.
katie September 8th, 2008 12:51:00 PM
This is a good list. The first two (lying and cheating) are biggies.
I would add:
Seems threatened, angry or defensive when you bring questions based on your own research.
Has a scary disciplinary record (you should always file a request to get your vets record from the state, and critically asses any information you receive. You will decide what "scary" means but for me -- I don't care about a briefly lapsed licensed, but anything related to patient care that sounds serious, it's over)
Has unsanitary/dirty premises.
And my personal huge concern -- has "technicians" that don't seem to know what the heck they are doing, or otherwise careless, incompetent staff. The vet can be fabulous, but if the staff are not carefully selected, competent, and experienced, its life-threatening for your pet.
On a related topic -- if the vet doesn't pay his good technicians well, treat them well, give them decent benefits, it is also a big danger sign.
Stefani September 8th, 2008 02:25:00 PM
I've written similar comments but for me, the biggest thing was just a mismatch between my old vet's practice and my current needs as a pet owner. She's a FANTASTIC vet for cats- my parents' geriatric kitty still goes to her (and always will- only fair, as Dr. M bottleraised her as a kitten many, many years ago) but she's REALLY not up to date on genetic health problems in dogs or the things that I feel, as a future breeder, my vet needs to know.
I have a new vet now who I really like. He's MUCH more comfortable with referrals and I'm using him in combination with a reproductive vet who does all my health testing- I feel like my guys are MUCH better covered between the two.
Cait September 8th, 2008 02:33:00 PM
As a raw feeder, I am often contacted by people who want to find a vet who supports a raw diet. I tell them that it's not important that their vet support the diet (my own vet does not), but it is important that the vet doesn't try to blame health problems on the diet.
My own vet is an excellent diagnostician who has never once, in the ten years I've been feeding this diet, tried to blame any health problem my dogs have had on the diet I feed, even when I asked him specifically if it might have contributed. I've known people, however, whose vets are so focused on the diet that they blame literally anything that happens on the diet, rather than looking for the real cause.
For example, a friend's dog became lame and her vet blamed the diet (I sent her to my vet, who found the real problem, which was completely unrelated to diet). In another case, a dog seemed to be in a lot of pain, and an x-ray revealed bones in the stomach. The vet said the dog needed emergency surgery, despite being told it was the dog's breakfast that he saw. It turned out the dog had osteosarcoma, which the vet missed because he couldn't see beyond the diet. Other people get lectured by their vets every time they come in about the dangers of the diet, using up valuable time that should be spent discussing the dog's health. Note that this sometimes occurs with home-cooked diets as well, though not as often.
I advise folks whose vets simply can't accept and see past the diet they feed to find another vet.
Mary Straus September 8th, 2008 02:57:00 PM
I once change vets after three visits in a row kept me for over three hours. You waited to see them (past scheduled time) one hour, you waited in the treatment room (another hour) you waited for prescriptopns, over one hour). The treatment was fine but a routine check up should not take over three hours expeciatilly for a dog that gets anxious in strnage places and then needs to be pried out from under a chair for the actual exam.
emily September 8th, 2008 05:18:00 PM
It's just not clicking is a big one....I love my regular vet, but from time to time I have to use one of the backup vet. She has bent over backwards to help my IBD/pancreatitis cats when they were very, very sick....squeezed them in between appointments when other vets were out sick and spent a lot of time to get whatever they needed done. But when it comes to discussing long term treatment, we are just on different planets. I think she is a great vet and I know her patients love her.
'Explain please' is another one I hear others complain about and does frequently cause them to seek another vet. Not so much that they have to ask questions, but that the vet refuses to really answer them when they do ask.
Another one that you didn't mention is a vet not being current. On the feline IBD forum we see a lot of vets that have never heard of TAMU with their GI testing or B12 protocol. The B12 has made a huge difference for so many cats on our forum. I'm just using the B12 as one example but there are some vets that really don't seem to know much at all about GI disease at all except for maybe what they learned in school 25 years ago. My vet isn't an internist but she knows TAMU, IRIS, latest treatments, is a member of VIN, etc.
Jenny September 8th, 2008 08:05:00 PM
"Seems threatened, angry or defensive when you bring questions based on your own research. "
That's a big one I hear from others too. My vet thanks me for the detailed diary's I keep, the researh I do.
Jenny September 8th, 2008 08:08:00 PM
Visited a vet once (my regular vet was away) who disliked german shepherds (probably disliked dogs period) and it was obvious. Not only did he seemed scared of handling my German Shephrd Dog, but I had to listen to him basically say they were dogs full of full of health problems, and it just went on and on...(my dog at the time had a bad skin infection).
I was very fortunate to have had the same vet for close to 35 yrs. He retired last year and now I'm back to square one of finding a new one. Wish me luck in finding one I'm confortable with and I can trust! :)
lolasmiles September 8th, 2008 08:11:00 PM
Ah lolasmiles.....That reminds me of taking my cat to the ER clinic this June for a ultrasound as the person that my clinic normally works with wasn't available. He must have said to me at least 10 times....'if he were a dog'.....I wanted to just tell him to get over it...he is a CAT. I know now why I go to a cat only clinic.
Jenny September 8th, 2008 08:30:00 PM
Here's a good one. Finding out your vet hasn't been paying his lab bill and the heartworm test he ran on your rescue dog is still sitting in the fridge but he went ahead adn charged you for the hw test anyway. Had I not been friends with the vet tech i never would have known.
Audrey September 8th, 2008 09:18:00 PM
I mostly left my last vet clinic due to the high turn over. Every time I would start to develop a relationship/trusted a vet - they left. The final straw was when the vet that I trusted the most, also left.
I figure if the two senior vets/owners cant keep their vets/staff happy enough to stay past a few years, they probably were not doing things in the best interest of my animals also.
I found where my vet went - and even if it is a long drive, I know I can TRUST him.
Laurie September 8th, 2008 11:10:00 PM
Yikes! All of these horror stories make me want to send my vet hospital a nice big thank you gift!
Even though there is a great new vet in the area with fancy new equipment and great staff (I know enough of them to feel great about the place) I stayed with the vet I have because it is a fabulous place. I even worked there for a couple on months years ago so I know the senior vet well and know how he runs the place. I like all of the vets there too and don't care which one I see with any of my pets. I trust them all. I can see I may be in the minority.
I encountered resistance only once in al the years I have gone there but even then they took my wishes into account and did what I asked even though they didn't think it was warrented. (I was vindicated with a valid theory ref thyroid testing and aggression, not commonly known about by many vets at the time)
I am so grateful to have them at my pets service. As we all are to have you as well Dr. K for having such great info at hand for us all to discuss. Even when some of us disagree it is always a great forum for thought exchange.
Marie September 9th, 2008 12:06:00 AM
Ooops forgot to add.
Mary, Thanks for the post about diet. I am just starting my crew on a new diet that includes more raw and will keep your post in my thoughts. I'd like to think my vet will continue on the road they have been on with me but this is a new frontier I don't know their thoughts on yet.
You made some great points to keep in mind. Thanks!
Marie September 9th, 2008 12:10:00 AM
I've been with my vet for many years, but before I found her there were a few vets that I wished I never crossed paths with.
There was one that told me the only reason he would treat my cat was because he saw one of my other animals. If he'd never seen any of my pets, he would have sent me walking.
The vet that put my Doberman down had a less than desierable bedside manner. When I asked what would happen to the body, he told me that with a county burial they just dump all the bodies in a hole and cover it up. I later found out how it was really done, but by that time I lost all respect for that vet.
Then there are the vets that seem to believe that they are not replaceable. These are the ones that talk down their noses to all clients and pretty much anybody else that dares to stir up conversation with them. I also worked with a few of these types and I always had the urge to stuff their heads in the kennel cleaning bucket after it had been used. These types of vets apparently were never taught that respect, trust and loyalty are earned, not handed out like Halloween candy. It's one thing to give a client a firm talking to that needs it, however acting like somebody is a God because they have DVM after their name is a whole other ball of wax.
Stacy September 9th, 2008 07:18:00 AM
I recently switched vets for reasons too complicated to go into ... so I arrive with my dog and meet the new vet and first thing he says is that he is not dealing with any bad behavior from my dog (not knowing us from anywhere or even getting to know my dog). My dog does happen to be a fear-aggressive patient - when he was a puppy the emergency vet looked at him and put a muzzle on him for the first time and he never forgot that - I guess this breed is scary but my puppy was only a few months old, <10 lbs and hurt! So this new vet refuses to look at my dog thoroughly (we were in for annual checkup) and states so. He then "takes him in the back" to do a blood test for heartworm and tells me he will meet me up front when done. It seems like forever and finally my dog comes up front with blood gushing out his nose. Vet says he got a little stressed - not to worry and disappears immediately. My dog is now shaking blood all over the waiting room. I paid the bill and left.
At work a few days later I found out a coworker's wife has same vet and pretty much got same treatment - refused to pay all of her bill as her dog wasn't examined fully. Called and the vet just dismissed her concerns.
We're both looking for a new vet now.
Liz September 9th, 2008 07:58:00 AM
Liz, I hate to say it but I am sure you are thinkiing it anyway. I suspect your dog was roughly treated -- possibly strangled back there. It would not be surprising from a vet whose first statement is to tell you he's not tolerating any guff from your dog.
There have been several vets in this country who put their hands around the dogs throat and squeeze, claiming they are trying to "control" the dog, and then it's eyes pop out. I've not heard of the bloody nose, but it seems that the same dynamic that causes eyes to pop out could cause a bloody nose.
Oh, I hear the chorus now:
He could just have had a blood pressure spike, there is no proof of anything.
Yeh, right. That's why the guy was pretty much forewarning that he wasn't tolerating resistance from the dog.
At a minimum, you should tell this story exactly as you have here on some of the review sites.
You haven't made any statement about how your dog's nose got bloody, you've just stated the facts. You can leave interpretation to the reader.
STACY -- FYI, I briefly worked for a vet during college (receptionist) and he used to say the same thing about the dead bodies -- that if the owner chose not to have them cremated and retrieve them, they would be buried in a health department maintained common grave.
Well, one night I was working late and found out the truth, when a man from "Braun" company showed up for "a pickup". He handed me his card and it said:
"We buy bones, meat, fat and gristle."
That was about 20 years ago, this man is still practising.
Stefani September 9th, 2008 08:50:00 AM
Ahhh..the topic of muzzling dogs...we've been struggling with that very issue in our practice for a couple of weeks. I'll post on it tomorrow, perhaps...
Dr. Patty Khuly September 9th, 2008 10:05:00 AM
UGH! I'm struggling with this right now. Do I stay or do I go? Love my vet clinic, staff and 2 out of 3 drs. You would think this is easy then. See Doc #1 or #2. I try. I make appts with Dr #1 usually and for whatever reason Doc #3 always walks in the exam room. I've even been pretty forceful when scheduling appts, I do NOT want to see Doc #3. It's not necessarily that I think Doc #3 is a bad vet, we just don't click or communicate well. Doc #3 is a dominant personality and I'm not. I admit, I am high maintenance. I have 3 special needs cats and I have to be an advocate on their behalf. But I am not confrontational and this is where the breakdown in communication occurs. I feel like it's a battle. I usually leave frustrated, angry and close to tears. Unfortunately, it's the best option around and I REALLY like the other vets, so I keep trying to make sure I get Doc #1 or Doc #2. *sigh*
Heather September 9th, 2008 10:51:00 AM
I've worked as a veterinary assistant for 5 years now (working on my license) and I have to say many of the reasons I've left a practice as an employee are the same reasons I would leave as a client--but I get to see it from a clearer perspective. At one point I worked at a clinic but refused to take my animals there, because they were the only ones who could work around my school schedule. I left that job as soon as I was able to find something else--and I warned my friends and family about them.
As for the many commenters who mentioned making appointments with Dr. A and having Dr. B come in--I currently work in a clinic with only 2 doctors, and they're both excellent. When A is running behind or doing surgery, I always give the client 3 options: wait until he's done, which may be a few minutes to an hour or more, drop off the patient and be assured that Dr. A will see him and talk to you when you pick up, or have Dr. B come in and do the exam now. Many of our clients are willing to see either doctor, but those that have a better relationship with one or the other are always respected and we do our best to have them see the doctor they prefer.
But we would never just send either doctor in when the client has an appointment with a certain one!
Orli September 9th, 2008 12:20:00 PM
Not following current vaccination protocols for cats is a BIG issue for me. Do you know how many vets DON'T follow them? It's downright ridiculous. After losing 1 cat to Fibrosarcoma, and the heartbreak associated with it, I make sure I find vets who follow the new protocols. Which is hard, it seems like everyone in my area vaccinates for everything every year! I'm actually going to a "corporate" clinic because they are the only ones who follow the new protocols and use Purevax for Rabies shots in cats. The last couple times I've moved that has been the main issue when finding a new vet. Usually if they are aware of the new protocols, they are also aware of other more recent advances in cat care.
Treatment of the staff was a reason for leaving another clinic. We only went to a couple visits, and not all of my cats went there.
Ravens Mom September 9th, 2008 01:18:00 PM
Dr. K, I'm looking forward to your article about muzzling. I just don't get why so many people think it's a big deal. I actually have a section on it in my new puppy class curriculum (introducing a muzzle to a puppy). It's a rare dog that won't have an emergency SOMETIME in their life, and MOST dogs will bite when they're in pain. Why do people make such a big deal (and prepare for it to minimize stress later) about a simple little precaution that really DOESN'T traumatize most dogs?
Cait September 9th, 2008 02:07:00 PM
re: muzzling.
I thought of that today when I was at the vets with our dog. I was waiting for the vet to emerge with her verdict, and in the waiting room this cute little dog (belonging to the family sitting next to me -- his "Dad" was reading a book but had given him a long lead to enjoy as he pleased) came bounding up to me, all friendly-like, with that expectant look that says, "Pet me" or so I thought. Silly me, I reached out . .. and he lunged to bite me (I pulled back, his owner noticed and tightened up on the leash).
The owner says to me:
"You should be careful. He bites. He bites her (gesturing to his wife) all the time."
Can you believe?
There were at least 4 other dogs and 10 people in that waiting room.
I can understand not wanting to muzzle maybe, but if you know your dog bites and you aren't going to muzzle him, it seems you would keep him on a short leash and keep an eye on him in a busy waiting room full of people and dogs. Especially if he has a habit of doing the old "bait and switch" in a room of animal lovers
Stefani September 9th, 2008 05:12:00 PM
Maybe these fall under "trust", but I personally would put cleanliness, pet safety, and comfort handling my pet as additional items. I haven't ever seen an unclean vet office, but it could make me turn around and walk out if I did. The last vet I used I liked a lot, but his examining rooms did not have closable doors, they had curtains, and I was bringing a bird to a vet that mostly did cats and dogs. Not cool.
And lastly, some vets are just more comfortable handling animals (or your species/breed, or your individual animal) than others, and vet techs too - some fumbles are okay in newbies as long as the more experienced person helps correct them, but outright fear of a small bird bothers me. I may change vets b/c the last one I went to instead of simply toweling my bird, turned off the light and lunged for her. And missed, either knocking or scaring her off my hand. I'm not too happy with that - even that "technique" is bizarre without the fumble, I have no clue why he felt it necessary unless he really was afraid of her - but I'm wiling to give him a second chance and ask about it and see how he does.
zandperl September 9th, 2008 05:25:00 PM
Good blog, Dr. K. I hope you'll follow-up w/10 reasons vets divorce their clients (sure to be a heavily-commented one!)
anna September 9th, 2008 06:49:00 PM
OMG - Stefani - the vet *did* say my dog's bloody nose was because of a spike in blood pressure! And he was gagging a lot - I thought it was because he was pulling on his leash so hard because he wanted to get out of there.
As far as the muzzle - I muzzle him all the time when he needs his nails clipped so I understand the need to do it. I should have been clearer - it was the nasty tone of "get a muzzle on that dog before I look at him" vs. "we're going to put a muzzle on just in case - you never know what a hurt dog will do" that bothered me.
Liz September 9th, 2008 06:59:00 PM
Re: muzzling - teaching dogs to accept a muzzle is a GREAT idea, and something all owners ideally should do! With some really tasty treats and a little patience, it usually isn't so difficult.
But a LOT also depends on the kind of muzzle used. Back in the 80s when I was a tech we often just wound gauze around a dog's muzzle and tied it. You had to tie it TIGHT or the dog could nip you - and I know it was uncomfortable to say the least. Same thing with wrapping a leash around a dog's muzzle. If it isn't tight it isn't safe or effective - and if it is tight it hurts and can easily teach a dog to hate and fear being muzzled. Cloth muzzles are cheap, and come in many sizes. There isn't any good reason nowadays for a clinic not to use them.
BUT - as a responsible owner - if you know your cat or dog is likely to snap at clinic staff when you take it to the vet, you should take your own muzzle. One that you know fits your pet comfortably, and the clinic staff will REALLY appreciate your concern for THEIR safety.
Barb September 10th, 2008 01:40:00 AM
Dr Patty, I've got a question: Do you have any tips on ensuring that our pets aren't mistreated when they're taken "in the back" for a procedure during an office visit?
My regular vet always lets me have the run of the place, they know that I know what I'm doing and I'm allowed to restrain my own dogs during procedures. I'm even welcome to watch surgeries and occasionally get to assist (I'm not THAT rusty!! <g>). But at the emergency clinic I'm just another client and have to wait while they take my pet "in the back". I like my emergency clinic too and have never gotten a bad vibe, but any strategies would be welcome.
Barb September 10th, 2008 01:52:00 AM
Barb: I have no answer for that. Some hospitals are just like that. For example, the speciality hospital I normally take my pets to lets me wander everywhere. The one where Sophie had her radiation never even let me peek in back (and I refer people to them!). Some places just have a "closed" atmosphere.
E-clinics almost always have a no-clients in back policy because they don't know you. You could be one that "flips out" over things you perceive to be painful or harsh when in reality they're necessary and not considered cruel (i.e., placing IV catheters without sedation, passing nasogastric tubes--heck, even clipping nails can look rough when dogs freak).
I don't know a great way around that one except to take all the emergency clinicians that might be on duty out to lunch and get to know them and have them trust you.
Dr. Patty Khuly September 10th, 2008 08:52:00 AM
Anna: Great idea. I have one I'm divorcing right now. Sucks.
Dr. Patty Khuly September 10th, 2008 08:53:00 AM
When I read of the former employees that left employment because of ill, dishonest, or unsafe treatment of animals/patients, I wonder how that knowledge becomes locked away indefinitely. Fear of reprisal, I suppose.
If only one employee would have taken me aside and told me not to return, that bad things were happening or my pets weren't safe, I would not carry the torment that I do.
For anyone new to this blog, my web site illustrates how important it truly is to be careful & wary, particularly in weakened, emotional times. Bring a friend, relative, anyone to witness and advocate for both you and your pet.
Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire September 10th, 2008 09:28:00 PM
I left the employment of a veterinarian for immoral practices including price gouging, unnecessary procedures, violent treatment of animals, dirty kennels and supplies, poor medication dispensing, etc, etc, etc. Clients were treated like cattle. BUT, they had one of those puppy/kitten packages, where you paid an equal payment for each visit including your neuter, so that you didn't have four cheap vaccine visits followed by an expensive surgery visit. In a low income neighbourhood it was well received. Plus, they advertised all sorts of things they really didn't offer... exotic pet expertise (one vet treated horses, but that's not much good in a downtown of 500,000 people), a travelling vet (sure, for a CRAZY fee), after hours services (again, for a fee so insane to discourage clients to use it).
Since then, I have told every single person I have come across to avoid that clinic like the plague. I have provided detailed accounts of several incidents I have personally witnessed. Every client responds by agreeing that something seemed a bit "off" while they were there. They book only 10 minutes per visit, regardless of the situation (crazy, right?) they have three vets and only two techs on at any time so that they only have part time techs (full time techs would demand benefits!).
As for the "in the back" situation, we simply don't go "in the back." I have found a clinic that knows and understands my wishes, and knows that after ten years of handling and rescuing dogs I can hold a dog as well as any tech. My dogs feed off of my calm demeanor (I am not one of those excitable clients, even in the middle of a crisis) and are much better with me there, rather than in a strange environment being tackled by a strange person.
If they NEED to go "in the back" they are accompanied. NO ifs ands or buts. PERIOD. Even x-rays are supervised. Sorry, but I have witnessed FAR too much. I have even seen a sedated dog dropped off of an x-ray table, cracking a hip. When the dog awoke with a limp, the vets said it must be a sprained muscle and sent the dog home. I quit soon after, never did find out what they did with the dog. I'm sure they never took responsibility, though.
My current vet also accepts the diet issue. They simply don't broach it at all. They also allow me to dictate treatment, to the point of even allowing me to choose medications if there's a choice between, say, two antibiotics/pain meds/etc. They know that I know my stuff, and I generally have a personal preference about almost everything (lol). Are they the best clinic? Hell no. They lose my appointments, their staff is scatterbrained, their 7+ vets are constantly turning over... but I know enough to make sure I see only those I'm comfortable with if I'm there for anything serious, I call ahead of time to confirm and double confirm my appointments, the dogs stay outside until their names are called, and *I* dictate all treatment. Plus, they're open 24/7 and their fees are incredibly reasonable in a city where vet fees are off the charts. For a rescue, this is a lifesaver.
I should add, however, that I do keep a second clinic, a more expensive, less flexible, more knowledgeable clinic in the wings for my really tough cases should I come across something new and interesting that I've never dealt with and am not comfortable treating. They cost me an arm and a leg and a visit is an uphill argument both to stay with the pet and regarding feeding, supplementation, holistic treatments, etc... but by the time I leave we've worked something out we're both happy with. That being said, it's taken me eight years (and over a dozen clinics) to find these two clinics and work out this system.
Like someone previously mentioned... when you're a pet owner, and ESPECIALLY a special needs pet owner, YOU are their only advocate. As uncomfortable as it may be, you MUST be prepared to pack up and move on if you're not at least *mostly* comfortable with the situation at hand.
kim September 11th, 2008 12:19:00 PM
Kim, re:
" That being said, it's taken me eight years (and over a dozen clinics) to find these two clinics and work out this system."
I think we should all take this statement to heart, since, as someone on the inside, you know what most naiive owners don't. I have heard these kinds of things ALL too often from technicians, assistants, and receptionists, etc. Most owners really have no clue.
After what happened to my cat (insulin overdose by unsupervised, unqualified, son-of-a-vet), I was often asked if I thought ALL vets were bad -- I've even been similarly challenged here.
Years out of that incident, the answer is "No . . . BUT" and its a big BUT.
I believe that there are VERY FEW, I mean VERY FEW, practices that are solid ALL AROUND. By that I mean:
Competent, caring vets who honestly do their best with each patient, stay current/educated, who work in practices with well-trained (preferably licensed) veterinary technicians, in which duties are assigned APPROPRIATE to skill level, staff are supervised, and the patients needs (not profit) come first. Also, practices that won't keep an unstable patient alone overnight, but refer. Vets who don't try to practice outside their skill level, who discuss all options and risks with owners.
Some practices are good in some respects, not others.
My mom's dog goes to a practice where we like A vet. Her colleague however, gave my mom a prescription for metacam for a dog in advanced kidney failure. (Fortunately, she couldn't get the drug into the dog, and that gave me time to do research and tell her DON'T. We ended up having him wiith us for 8 months, but I'm sure it would have been a lot shorter if he'd been on metacam which is contraindicated in kidney failure, even in dogs). We will not see that vet anymore. Also, we won't leave the pets there overnight because no one is there. We won't be spaying her puppy there because they don't have only licensed techs and I'm not assured of their monitoring.
We can see that ONE vet there for basic care, but that's where it ends.
Stefani September 12th, 2008 11:03:00 AM
FarmFashion, I swear we must have worked for the same vet.
I have been a vet tech and have worked at two practices. The first practice was a really wonderful place - I have no complaints about safety, prices, trust, etc. The doctors were very nice to the staff, clients, and patients. The only problem they had was understaffing - the hospital only hired well-qualified technicians, and there were few in the area.
The second vet I worked for was like the one you described. I was horrified, and left quickly.
My biggest problems were:
-No outside runs. Kenneled dogs were not walked frequently if at all. It was not even taken into consideration, and dogs often soiled themselves.
-Both Technician and Vet handling skills were very, very poor. Dogs were being yanked around on leads, smacked, held down, left in cages with slip collars and leashes on.
-Little concern for euthanasia practices. Shoving euthanized cats and dogs into plastic bags as they are still convulsing.
-Extreme breed biases. I saw certain breeds consistently scruffed and muzzled, regardless of the actual temperament of the dog, while "friendly breed" dogs that had bite records were handled freely.
-Echoing the other comments about diet issues - vets would disregard any brand or type of food but Science Diet or A/D, etc. Oh, Science Diet. You'd think it could cure cancer the way some vets push that stuff.
-Shoddy medical advice. Any idiot that had taken college-level science could spot the rag-tag excuses these vets were hawking.
-Not waiting for an animal to be fully sedated before beginning procedures.
-Staff issues. Yelling at techs and receptionists, losing patience, getting angry at staff for veterinarian mistakes. A poor work environment in general.
And my biggest qualm of all:
-Acting as a dog trainer.
In most cases you wouldn't go to your physician for marriage counseling, so don't go to your veterinarian for training advice. Unless of course they have a certification in the field.
I currently work as a dog trainer, and consistently meet clients that have received the worst behavior advice from veterinarians. When I worked as a tech, it amazed me that clients would ask the vet more questions about training collars than, say, vaccines.
I don't mean offense, and I'm sure there are vets that do know something about behavior, but I strongly believe that they should not be giving out advice in a professional capacity without further certification and training. Otherwise, it's just not appropriate.
To get a DVM/VMD, veterinarians are not required to do any coursework in animal behavior, ethology, behavioral ecology, or even psychology. I'm not sure of any vet schools that even offer it without going for an additional master's/certificate/combined phd.
On the other hand, a certified animal behaviorist has at least a master's degree in the subject.
I have seen veterinarians become infuriated by a trainer or behaviorist giving medical advice. It's a two-way street.
Anonymous September 13th, 2008 01:15:00 AM
Gee whiz, Anonymous----
Wouldn't the behavior of the clinic you cite, cause reason for reporting to anti-cruelty authorities?
Just what means were used to euthanize animals at that facility? Your description certainly doesn't involve humane practice of acceptable humane drugs.
Almost makes me wonder if you are from my home state.
Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire September 13th, 2008 02:40:00 PM
Anonymous---- you said "And my biggest qualm of all: -Acting as a dog trainer."
I have to say if I saw the things you say you saw such as, "- Not waiting for an animal to be fully sedated before beginning procedures." that a vet giving training advice would not be MY biggest qualm..
Elizabeth - from Nova Scotia September 13th, 2008 07:31:00 PM
I've had to divorce two vets.
When I was twelve, my rabbit, T, managed to shatter a toenail while playing in my bedroom. We were unable to stop the (surprisingly profuse) bleeding, and by the time we arrived at the vet's, my entire shirt was covered in the unfortunate bunny's blood. Although he'd agreed to see us, it quickly became apparent that said vet was (to put it lightly) not a "bunny person". He treated T with disdain and wouldn't touch him. He removed the entire nail at its base with a pair of clippers, slapped some styptic powder on it, and started to leave. When I asked him if he could possibly examine the rabbit before we left to make sure he was going to be OK given the amount of blood he'd lost (I was still wearing the evidence), he was visibly annoyed, and insisted that "It's just a broken nail! He'll be fine!" He was clearly more concerned with vacating the premises than whether or not the rabbit was honestly going to 'be fine'. (He lived on site, and would go home when it was slow.)
On the ride home, T went into shock.
That one visit was a deal-breaker for me. My parents had been using this vet since our Siberian Husky (then 10) was a puppy. Although he'd always been a little on the socially awkward (and occasionally rude) side, they'd never had any problems with him. They chose to continue taking him there, as he worked well with K, and K had a complex medical history with which he was familiar. For the rabbits, however, we immediately ditched him and located an incredible, rabbit-savvy vet with a better bedside manner. (If it had been my decision, we'd have taken the dog elsewhere, too.)
The second time I left a practice, it was (predominantly) because of poor communication. The staff made blanket assumptions of owner incompetence and disinterest to the detriment of the patients' care, were routinely dismissive of my concerns (I suspect my age was probably a factor- at the time, I was 19 and looked something closer to 14), and didn't want to take the time to discuss anything. Above all else, we just weren't on the same page. I don't think it was a *bad* practice, per se- it just wasn't a good fit for us.
We have since been blessed with an absolutely phenomenal vet (and her equally awesome staff), and the boys and I couldn't be happier.
TwinkieMaven September 13th, 2008 09:19:00 PM
I have to back up anonymous on his/her experiences being in evidence at some practices (I've had the same experience at least twice while working as a relief doctor).
Reporting animal cruelty in these establishments was impossible for me because I refused to go back--and proof is necessary. I never thought of video-recording the events because it simply never occurred to me. Really.
But this was ten years ago and I was also younger, less aware of how I could make a difference and more concerned with getting far away than anything else. Cowardly, perhaps but there you have it. Fighting these places needs to happen but it's not easy.
Even tougher is the fact that many places have one or two practices that you don't like (and that you may even consider cruel), but they do everything else just right. Fixing those issues by staying is the approach I've taken but I've left if my concerns were not addressed. Getting those intermediate places to reform through animal cruelty prosecution is simply not doable I've determined.
Dr. Patty Khuly September 14th, 2008 09:58:00 AM
Unfortunately, Dr K, the facts are the same here in Canada as well. Just before I left the clinic in question, we were audited by the (CVMA or OVC... I can never remember which branch actually does the audits I believe it is the CVMA) governing body.
Anyways, I thought "right on!" and stayed to stick it to them. I made sure to point out every single issue I had, including actually writing "a$$hole" on the front of client's records who they deemed "difficult." Sometimes they would just write a circle with a dot in the middle that actually kinda looked like a boob (lol) but was supposed to look like the above. Childish, and exactly the kind of thing you would expect from a veterinarian of this caliber.
Anyways, I pointed out the fact that they routinely would place small dogs and cats on the floor, place the rubber floor mats on top of them and STEP on them to control them to inject them with sedatives (instead of placing them in a "control box" which, while also stressful is much more humane and highly unlikely to cause injury). They brushed it off, more interested in whether the pets' weight was recorded at each visit and the Phenobarbital was all accounted for and locked properly.
AAAAAARRGH!
I quit.
kim September 14th, 2008 10:37:00 AM
Nobody patronizes a clinic with knowledge of cruel and abusive treatment for their pets "in the back room". The examples cited are feared by clients or not even thought of by most of society entrusting pet care to educated "professionals". The time to weed out this abuse is here and now.
Documentation of specifics vs. generalities of on-going nature could/should result in investigations, whether anonymously or hopefully with integrity and courage of "witness statements". Obviously, employment can be gained at the reputable, ethical facility----as cited by those who leave this type of abuse; why dismiss what goes on so easily?
The fear of reprisal is rampant; silence prevails, in a profession hard-earned and hoped to be respected and deserving as any other.
There are many positive ways to deal with these issues: lobbying for reform or clarity in state statutes, freedom of information by regulatory boards, contact to certified cruelty investigators, forming off-shoot groups of recognized licensed/certified groups. Surely, with thought, this can be brought to light and reform possible.
As one who has been forever changed, by exposure and witness, to unethical, abusive, and cruel veterinary practice, I assure you that this is truly the time to have courage for reform.
Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire September 14th, 2008 11:58:00 AM
This thread is a conversation that needs to continue in some way between the veterinarians and vet staff who CARE, and the pet owners wanting to do something about veterinary quality issues. It is a very important discussion and I applaud the contributors to it.
Re:
"Reporting animal cruelty in these establishments was impossible for me because I refused to go back--and proof is necessary. I never thought of video-recording the events because it simply never occurred to me. Really.
But this was ten years ago and I was also younger, less aware of how I could make a difference and more concerned with getting far away than anything else. Cowardly, perhaps but there you have it. Fighting these places needs to happen but it's not easy."
What you say is unfortunately true -- it is VERY hard to get some action taken against a vet practice EVEN WITH testimony of the staff (I'm thinking of the Sheridan case in SC) or video (I' thinking of the Howard Baker case in NJ and more recently the horrific example of William Baber who is now in private practice again with the blessing of the vet board).
However, part of the reason it remains so difficult is that not enough veterinary professionals are willing to stand up and declare that they will not tolerate this in their profession. I realize that retributions are real (anyone who was on Dr. John Robb's Protect the Pets list will remember how his colleagues turned on him for speaking out for quality in the veterinary profession; similar things have happened to Texas vet Bob Rogers). But when one is brave enough to stand up, he or she makes it easier for the next, and soon there is a group, and soon there is a majority, and then the balance of power shifts to the vets and staff who WANT humane and accountable treatment to objective standards.
I appeal to you folks of conscience in the veterinary profession -- this is all so VERY important, both for the future of your profession and for our pets.
You've got to try. Please try. Please stand up.
People like me, screaming from the outside, can do little more than try to draw public attention to the lack of regulation in the veterinary field, and in the end, our only hope (in the absence of action on your part) is to scare the heck out of every pet owner to try to turn them vigilant.
But it truly is a pity that we need to do this, and even so, our campaign cannot change a thing within your profession, it can only change your clients -- in ways that you undoubtedly won't like (making them less trusting etc).
The better way would be a partnership to improve care to standards everyone could be proud of.
If you stand up, and speak out, many of us will be here to help in any way we can.
FWIW I too live with a guilty conscience from my 1 month working at a vet practice as a receptionist -- learning that countless unwanted cats were being gassed in a chamber in the back every night after hours by a cackling, IMHO mentally disturbed "assistant." I told myself naiively that they must be sick, that's why they were being euthanized. I hadn't heard their struggles and didn't know what that big chamber was for. But one night when I was there after hours and the assistant came out, LAUGHING about how the cats struggled in the chamber as they suffocated. I was severely disturbed by this.
I am ashamed to say that again I tried to tell myself the pretty lie that they were obviously very ill, and needed to be put down or they wouldn't be doing it. But there were always so many, and they didn't seem to belong to clients. Our freezers seemed full of dead animals. Why? Then came the night that the man showed up to pick up the "bones, meat, fat, and gristle" they were buying from the hospital.
I quit. I was 19 years old, I didn't even know you could report vets. I just wanted to get as far away from that place as I could.
I realize sadly that nothing the vet was doing was probably illegal at that time. Not the gas chamber. Not the selling of dead animals' bodies for profit. Perhaps not even the lying about abandoned remains being buried in a "common grave" operated by the health department. Although allowing a vet assistant to "euthanize" animals without a vet on the premises must have been a violation of some kind.
He also did convenience euthanasias no questions asked. I accidentally walked in the back to witness the summary execution of an obviously young, energetic German Shephard that the annoyed sounding "owner" asserted was "old and sick." I got the definite feeling the man was mad at the dog for something. Maybe an accident in the house? His tone had an "I'll show him" air to it.
The vet asked no questions and euthanized him right in the hallway. Moments before he had been happy and friendly bouncing all over the place.
I had sought that job because I had a semester off and I "loved animals" and had happy myths in my head about the nature of veterinary practice; I left it because I love animals and no longer could bear to work in a place where most of the staff obviously did not. It was closer to clear contempt (with the exception of one undoubtedly underpaid staff vet from India, who I saw perform an act of skill and compassion that was the only positive experience I took from that place), and definite cruelty transpired there.
Anyway, I have no proof of any of that now, and the practice owner responsible for all that is still practicing and I nearly fainted when someone recommended him to me as a "home visit acupuncturist." Thanks, but no thanks.
If you stand up within your profession, you can raise the standards to the point where it will not be as hard to get something done. You guys on the inside need to speak out.
We will be here for you if you do.
If you don't, then unfortunately, all that is left for us clients to do is scream from the rooftops about the bad things that go on in some vet practices, in the hopes that more discerning, less trusting, more cynical clients might be able to avert some of the tragedies that occur so needlessly.
Stefani September 14th, 2008 12:58:00 PM
Stefani: If it helps any, I think I'm doing a better job of it now than I did ten years ago. Pushing the envelope has to happen from the inside. And, for me, that means writing on ethics for vet publications, participating in my local VMA and calling out the AVMA in print when it deserves it. As to handling individual vets, what's needed is a lot more video recorders like the one that nabbed Baber (the Tennessee vet who got off way too easy, IMO). Things are changing. I promise.
Dr. Patty Khuly September 14th, 2008 04:02:00 PM
Welcome back to a blog of the recent past, which could have elicited more comment! Perhaps, the upscale facilities will indeed offer video monitering for a fee, and why not? Does it have to involve "closeups"? I would say no, but simply general monitoring of various areas, that certainly would display professionalism, quality care, and the like.
I can vouch that what is "normal" behavior does not become altered, knowing that a video or monitoring goes on. At the USPS, we still hear the expletives, belching by the rude, and hair/eyebrow-raisng arguments between management & craft.
Why wouldn't ANY clinic or professional conducting themselves ethically, proficiently, be wary or afraid of such usage? As advertisement, clients may or more likely, flock to patronize such a facility!
Barbara A. Albright/New Hampshire September 14th, 2008 04:21:00 PM
It only took TWO reasons for me to break up with my vets! I didn't have a choice--did I?
http://alabamavetboardwatch.110mb.com/New-Asp-inde...
Fotini September 16th, 2008 02:23:00 PM
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